The Future of Office Design: Fortune 500 Insights 🏢 | Workspace Transformation Expert Kristoff DuBose

This Beyond Interior Design podcast is about exploring the future of office design. It delves into the evolving needs and challenges of the workforce, the importance of creating spaces that prioritize people's well-being and productivity. But also the role of experimentation and continuous learning in designing effective office environments. 

1. How has the shift towards remote work and digital-first reality impacted office design?
2. What is the new focus in office interior design?
3. How does a design strategist translate a business's needs into physical office spaces?
4. How can interior design enhance productivity and employee well-being?
5. Why is it important to consider psychological safety in office interior designs?
6. How should you start an office design project and who should you understand before designing?
7. How does understanding the client's challenges allow for greater creative freedom?
8. How can interior design help create a sense of understanding and affinity with the client?
9. How can design be a tool to enable clients to meet their challenges powerfully?
10. How can the office space be used as a tool for the operation of a business, rather than just housing employees?

> Here you can find out more about Kristoff DuBose:

https://instituteofinteriorimpact.com/kristoff/

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Transcript

let's start we are alive after kovitz hospitality is booming back but offices no they don't bars restaurants and hotels became strong competition of the upper space again for years we've lived in the present's first reality which means full Office Buildings but now the new digital first realities here with remote work more freedom more autonomy and more choice so what are we going to do with all our offices transform it into a digital first office we are forced to look at it in a different way an amazing and surprising things can happen when the right approach is taken and the right questions are asked I'm Mark miscus your host thank you for being here and together with we are the founders of The Institute of dairy impacts this is where we connect and Empower ambitious interior designers and design professionals like you so what's the impact you want to make is it something beyond the dairy design that we all want to make this world a better place I'm pretty sure your answer is yes too and we love to inspire you and to guide you on this amazing journey so great you're here let's get the conversation started because today we are going to crack the office design codes with design strategist Christoph Dubose from London UK this man has ideas worth spreading he knows how to make the offers a desirable place to be this is how you are going to convince your own clients of your crazy office design ideas here he is Kristoff Dubose hi Kristoff hi Mark thanks for having me buddy yeah thank you thanks so much for being our guest today yes well let's go straight forward with the question what's the most

oh that's such a good question um Once Upon a Time you know in the the most important place in the office was obviously the corner office where the boss had his big mahogany desk and his sofa seti with his whiskey cupboard and an eight-person meeting room of course if you were blessed enough to go into that hallowed space you knew you had made it right that was uh and and you even look at the architecture of tall towers from that time um and they have like for example in court Canary Wharf you'll you'll see some of the buildings have multiple Corners along that corner the idea is that more people could get a corner office so so it it you know that that level of importance had big big influence on architecture and the expression of power but that has completely changed and I think in some ways I feel bad for the corporate ladder climbers who spent their whole career climbing in order to get to that corner office and now they're they've just finally reached a reality where you know that doesn't exist anymore they have to do it with a coffee machine yeah that's it well you've yeah you've nailed it so so the most important space now is definitely the kitchenette the canteen the place where people come together for nourishment where they share ideas where they come across they do their sort of little bake sales and and it's where people truly truly come together and have that cross fertilization of ideas and that's a radical departure because in that reality I just described previously where we had the corner office was the most important space we used to design kitchenettes and canteens that were just like a hole in the wall where you just literally go in it's dingy you make your cup of tea you put it in the moldy dishwasher you get back to your dad you get back to your desk right that was that was you know the reality that now okay you know and those you know we used to be very ruthless about space in that time and calculating fee earning space who how many people have sat there you know and that was an ancillary space that wasn't earning any money so it was it had to be as small as possible in the least you know like you know desirable space now that has completely flipped on its head and the canteen the Gathering space is one of the most important places you can go and the rest of the office kind of spins off of that sort of you know that space and and the reason being is because it's the one place where you'll you'll meet everyone you where you could come across you know just about everyone um and that sets a tone for culture it's a tone for your brand identity and what you what you want to achieve when you're in the office and it sets the tone for all of the values that that you hold and so you know and and how you share out space and a lot of times people are holding meetings in that space because they want to be overheard they want to be um Invitational and open to having other people join so it's it's such a major major shift I can't I can't stress enough how important it is to have that that um that open inclusive Gathering space right at the heart and the center of your um of your office oh you're literally making it the heart yes that's right yeah I mean think think back to caveman days everyone gathered around a fire it's really kind of it's really it's really kind of like that wow cool metaphor yeah I know if you are if you would ask a friend of mine what's your favorite place at the office he he's always helps with the loop the only place where you'll be left alone yeah so nothing about Gatherings just being alone literally

well well yeah holy [ __ ] holy [ __ ] is there yeah to relax and to have your own moment of freedom and privacy the meditation time meditation time yeah hey what's uh your well people like to call you I like to call you a design strategist because you have a really you have you are you can't design without the strategy and actually more you're more strategy strategies than a designer actually because you really want to know why you are doing it not how it looks like but why it looks like that yeah and we completely agree on that one uh you're at The Institute so what's what's so fascinating about your job what is what you do what you do well I you know I think it's it's interesting because if you're if you're going to design a space that works for a business you need to know how that business works and it for me it's really fascinating to it's one of the things I love most about my my job is that I get to meet all different types of Business Leaders and I get to um listen to their their problems their difficulties their challenges their big wins the the things that they feel that they do better than anyone else um and and also to find out how you know the underworkings of their business um because that's that all ties into how we set up an office and how we get it you know truly working for them uh but but that means because we're we're talking about really about strategy actually so this is uh well we we go later in how you start a project like that through designing an office because a lot of designers who edit you go in with an idea you think Ah that's the office that's my ideal office I'm going to make for them and then you are meeting the CFO or whatever your the people is you you need to talk to are updating you they have definitely other ideas about uh the outcome yeah no yeah exactly and that's exactly right you have to go in with zero preconceived notions because what you know what you are um what you are there to do is to channel that energy from that business and turn it into physical reality it's it's um you have to translate it yeah yeah exactly um and and it's sort of you know it's it's turning sort of you know this ethereal thing into matter you know turning it into you know reality and uncovering the code and and I get to learn so much from that because there's there's never a moment where I walk in and talk to a business leader and I've heard everything there's there's always something now you know and I've learned a lot so so I can come in I can be quite competent and understand their different divisions they're different personality types and I can bring a lot of that to the fore but every time there's one little nugget every business is different every person and every business is different and that that for me is really exciting so to go in with preconceived notions and lose that that that sense of Discovery is a real is a real shame yeah and you know and back to your question that's the part I love the most is that you know a lot of variety in life and I think creatives we do need Variety in life because we're you know that's we're creative we yeah we look at the world and we see something that doesn't exist and we we set about turning that you know so that that sense of of of newness and change is really important and and that's probably one of the most that was probably the best things about being an interior you know strategist and designers that you can you can really get under the skin of you know the of all different kinds of businesses and learn and you know and build from that and that that's definitely the the part of Designing that's my favorite part really get under the skin get to know their guilty pleasure strange habits whatever desires dreams frustrations pains yeah yeah if you know if you if you can find out that if you can discover that part you you you're ready to go with your project you will have a very smooth and wonderful project with an awesome client is it if you connect if you can connect on that level yeah correct yeah well for the before people are joining if you are joining us live right now please use the chat if you have any questions swim is here too my business associate my friend uh he's here to respond and collecting all the messages and at the end we will have a q a session too so stay with us we're happy to help you all right we are talking about um yeah let's go talk about the presence first reality vs versus the digital first reality well let's start at the beginning what is it what do you mean with that well I mean you sort of your earlier question uh was was brilliant because it sort of touched on that um and what we described before with the corner office and that sense of expression of power and and and and and status that was presence first right that was everyone had to be in the office every day from nine to five it was not even a question and if you did want to work somewhere else you had to demonstrate and beg and show all sorts of reasonings why that would be a good idea um now the perfect example um for a you know a business first reality you know when we moved um OCTA into their first offices in in in in here in London um when they moved them out of service office we had a really great facility set up for them you know big canteen whether I'd be having their you know their their breakfast setups it was really that Cantina just described really cool meeting rooms even a space that was completely separate that had you know um a keg and a pool table and you know and a completely separate space in the building it was just it was an amazing facility and when we showed everyone the plans then everyone walked up and went which desk is my desk it's like hang on a minute that I mean and that's that's what you get in the presence first reality is because people are going to be sitting at that desk for 40 hours a week they want to make sure it's got some light it's good enough whereas now in the in the digital first reality you're coming to the office with a purpose you're coming to the office with a because right so you're not you're not just there because you have to drag your weary bones onto a crowded tube system like everyone else and then sit there and you know slog away your work you're there because you have you have determined that you have a better reasoning for being in the office than you could be from home ah there's a reason that you're there with a team or that you've got to get some specific type of work done or that you need to do some learning or you just you know how to you wanted a different point of view but you're not tied to that particular location at the particular desk so the the digital first reality necessarily means that the office is no longer the Central Tool in the toolkit for business operations it's it's still an important one but it's no longer Central you know the networks the way we work the workflows the the the the you know the the um the the hosting and all that sort of stuff is much more important in some ways and the office is become something somewhat more um it's still important but it's it's more of a supportive role as opposed to a central you know commanding role yeah so yeah but you you have a really good excuse to go to the office it's not like you can do it if you can do a task at home or even better at home yeah stay at home and if you need to go to the office there is that there's an environment especially designed for this well can we call it moments yeah yeah designing moments actually isn't it it is and it's it's it's um it's for chemo and it's also you know I think think about it this way when it's when it's presence first you are obligated to go to the office so you are dragging your way about you just oh you just can't wait for Friday evening you can't wait for the weekend right where whereas the opposite is is true in the digital first reality you might have been working on Project sites you might have been working at client sites you might have been working from home you might have been working from a serviced office near your home but when you when you're time to go to the office and see your colleagues and meet your colleagues you're going to be leaping out of bed excited and you're not necessarily going in for nine o'clock you might be going in for 11 or 11 30 dude I mean it's a different so you're not you know the commute the fact that we even have a rush hour is a sign that we're doing things wrong but yeah another morning person and you to be there at eight o'clock and you have to to do all the traffic jam the stress in your family at home with your kids getting out of bed making breakfast lunch whatever yeah that's it and then you're sat there staring at your screen waiting for the Creator to hit which usually only hits you at about 11 o'clock and it's just it's silly right and then you need three liters of coffee at a coffee machine and you just maybe you're efficient at 11 o'clock in the morning or at 12 maybe some people are not even efficient in the morning and give them the afternoon or evenings yeah that's right some people some people want to work late in the evening some people want to work early in the morning it depends you know and working through those personality types is a real tenant is a central tenant for the digital first is because you've got to understand your personality types or people that you're working with and different personality types fit for different roles as well you know the sales types of people there's the you know accounts types of people this is just two very ends of the spectrum but understanding that and designing space that's inclusive for everyone as opposed to space that's only designed for you know introverts or space it's only designed for extroverts which is yeah that that it's really important to be able to have that sense of nuance that sense of landscape um and and building out a a a you know a space that has that sort of variation in Opportunity um yeah for me it looks like the old the old offices are still new offices that are going to build and not designed really well they they like to create for to get the most efficient people but it's actually the opposite is it yeah it's you know and it's there's an illusion it is totally um and and it's you know and and how teams work and formed you know when you have a borderless open plan when you're ruthlessly efficient and packing a number of desks and then just provide a canteen in a few meeting rooms it's just not enough variation in terms of the work Styles the word flows um and it's you know it it's it's it's it's it's it's the office has a spreadsheet you know with desks kind of packed in like that um you know in in some ways in some parts of the world there are some parts of a business that works you know so if you're doing a trading floor for a bank yes of course you're going to be doing that but unfortunately we have grafted that and put it on to almost about everything um yeah it's not and it just it's not really conducive to productivity creativity Innovation communication and um and quality of work there was actually a study done um you know 2018 by Psychology today this is really interesting they they did what they called the curtain test um so they took a borderless open plan it just had you know acres and Acres of desks um and the problem was that same problem everyone has why are you sending an email to me when you're only five desks down right and you could come and talk to me well yeah this is you know and that's a that's a pretty normal phenomenon in you know in in a borderless open plan in a president's first reality right um the the the um the study what they did was they drew a curtain around they found that like the magic number was about 14 people they just threw a curtain around so it wasn't soundproof or anything it was just just a sense of visual barriers and now all of a sudden you can you can sort of start to get a sense of who people are and they found that people felt psychologically safe to begin having open conversations because winning the board was open plan you had no idea who those people were what their agenda was if they were listening so everyone felt really you know quiet and there was not a whole lot of communication and silos were really a big thing when everyone was broken down so this whole idea of we've created a collaborative place because we've it's a big huge open plan is it actually turns out to be quite the opposite in that in that space where you know where you're in a curtain they found the productivity went up communication went up um Innovation because people were felt psychologically safe to experiments winter um you know and and and that sort of you know so and the speed of the work you know you know also went up so that that's just a it's a it's a sign that shows that when you create little hubs of people and pods and create a more of a landscape office you're going to see a lot better forms of communication and people coming together is it that they

how people behave yeah that's you know I think there's there's um so that particular study is is is more about psychological safety and and how as as people we can get units together but Primal feeling yeah that's right but but I think the the what you've just raised is a really interesting one because it shows that you know this is something that Hospitality do really well they figure out the mix of a property what what size room how many you know how many Suites they need how many you know Junior Suites they need how many amenities they need to in order to set up a really good Hospitality experience with all of the different various bits and pieces that you need to you know to to do that and as as you know in offices we haven't had to do that because we've been in a presence first reality where the office was never questioned we were we kind of got away with just packing people into a space and providing very little amenity because didn't need to they had to come right now all of a sudden you have to convince them to come the best place to look is is is you know who's been really good at convincing people to come well that's Hospitality it's bounced after the covet it's bounced back you know bars restaurants hotels Arenas you know concerts and all that sort of stuff is is you know huge and yet people are saying yeah I don't feel safe coming to the office well it's it's not about necessarily about covert safety I think it's about psychological safety yeah definitely yeah I totally agree well knowing all this how do you how do you start an office design project wherever you start because who you need to deal with who do you need to understand before you can start designing because that's what we all love to do but yeah something something one step before that well I think I think one of the most important things is you know when you're looking at a design project is um never underestimate the the challenges that are faced by the senior execs so um you know talk to the CFO talk to the CEO and understand you know the gap between where they are and where they want to be and there's a lot of challenges and and I've got to say you know as as a design um culture we've we have kind of you know the CFOs have always been under a lot of pressure rents have been you know the cost of real estate has gone up and up and up and so we've we've packed a lot of people into smaller amount of space and and and so that you know that's you know basically just looking at the bottom right hand corner but there's a new sort of thing you know that the challenge of getting people back into the office um of getting people to um to to participate in the daily Runnings of the business in person um has has led to a different sort of challenge you know the silos have gone up the you know there's a bit of stagnation going on with sales Cycles are getting longer so if those are the kinds of challenges that a business leader is facing how do we unlock that potential for them and and getting people back in so the starting point is really identifying that Gap and understanding um what their challenges are and how we can use design to to meet those challenges there's there's a you know and then there's a whole series of steps that you take from that starting point that's literally kickoff is one of that's one of the most important things and I know um you know this is probably one of the most challenging times for businesses you know all over the world so this is a great time to be having those kinds of discussions because um while not only is everything changing but the you know know in terms of you know how businesses work and and you know how people are interacting but everything is also changing in terms of interest rates and changing in terms of of business practices and borders are coming down and you know all that sort of stuff so and don't forget the brand image and Company cultures that's right that's right and and you know you know companies are now a lot more participatory in in society now they have a point of view they're taking a stand for social issues so all of that stuff all of that stuff plays into how exactly you're going to set up an office and how exactly you're going to use that office to create that messaging for for staff for talent and for when's that Talent together how they how they interact with one another um and how they they they leverage each other's skills and create balance yeah so I can imagine it's great if you walk into a building and you can feel and breathe all the all their their Vision their perspective on the world how they uh how they want you to connect yeah yeah great um well yeah you told you you have to deal with the CFO um I did some uh I did some great big projects for our real estate people and they didn't care about the design at all they just had their the the the the numbers in their minds their Investments they are it was the first meeting at the table I was really like what am I doing here but I I was in the boardrooms with them talking about the next new big Investments for them and the projects and and they said you need to hear this before we start before you start designing I was maybe three four five times I was in the meeting I was like that's not for me that's not for me but at the end I got it I was like wow okay I took my notes and I was able to translate all their key points all their interests all their their what they wanted to to achieve I was able to translate it and to explain my design on their terms yeah so they knew why I did some crazy stuff into their in the into the real estate yeah that's that that's exactly right Mark and and what in those initial meetings what they're getting giving you is the language that they use to communicate yeah giving you the the insight to what's important to them and you know what what they value and they're also giving you the keys to the kingdom right so so when they're they're sharing with you um some of their their their big challenges and you know what has to happen in order for something to be successful for it to fail you know or for it to win yeah um and and it's you know that that listening is really really important um and and you know when done well it can also challenge your design perspective and actually cause you to think a little bit outside of your normal sort of space definitely and and and that's where the real creativity comes together the creativity isn't you know putting together materials and and colors and and textures and finishes the creativity is is taking that something which is a conversation has very little to do with design but translating it into how the design is for and I just again that goes back to your very first question that's one of the things I love the most about what we do as designers yeah and I I remember when I walked in the first that this was building I I had to wait because a meeting was delayed or the person was not there I I don't know what I was just sitting there in the in the waiting room in the lobby and I could hear all this conversation going on about the company about how they handle with clients how they deal with them how do you talk with them they were even there was some stuff gossiping the reception desk because this lady or man you know is everything in the in the office yeah everybody's going to get going to get there yeah then I had to wait well five six floors to the top I have to wait again but then I had this magic coffee machine there were all the people coming out of these rooms about the really traditional building and I was able to listen dead stories too and then I was entering the bathroom so I have already three worlds in the same company yeah and quite quite cool so it was like you're spying on them yeah you got so much information totally yeah and that's the best part as well because yeah because then you get you're getting a deeper cut yeah it's important to see when you get that initial brief you're getting the sort of the main plot as it were for a story right but then you do what you just did and get all of that information that you're getting that what the subplot is so you just get a deeper cut and if you can if you can design for that plot and that Supple and get a strategy for both of those then you'll be flying absolutely flying because then what happens is the resistance the newness and all that sort of stuff washes away as people realize that they have been thought about and considered and and the things that you know there's there will definitely be things that you can't get into the design just you know for cost or time or whatever yeah but that won't matter so much anymore because people will feel like they're important bits had been had been considered and so all of those other things those little little imperfections are those you know bits people don't people forgive that a lot more when they've when they feel that they've been considered even though they know they're not part of the main plot yeah and I could I could feel that you this this pathway you can create in enormous uh creative freedom for yourself yeah because people they need to feel understood they don't need to to understand you they need to feel understood so they were understanding me yeah and was like okay great uh now do your thing you know what to do and I got all the creative freedom in the world they didn't care about the if it was a rat or a blue carpet not at all yeah yeah yeah you just have to do I could do my thing yeah that's it yeah that's it and if you and if you meet those those metrics then then you know that's that that you you were probably um it sets you apart in a lot of ways because it it you know then all of a sudden you become a trusted partner um as opposed to a service provider and that's one of the most important positions to be in as an interior designer not someone who's just going to come and and and and provide decorations it's really important that the people that you're working with feel um you know that connection that that identity that Affinity with you and the only way you can create that is by genuinely stepping into their world and understanding those challenges that they're facing and making sure darn sure that you you you use your work um to to enable them to meet those challenges powerfully and that's you know you've got to dedicate yourself to that for your clients yeah if you want to go level up you need to handle with this uh because in the end is to get the guaranteed to be yeah well exactly because these you know you're taking care of these people you're looking after these people it's it's vital that it's it's vital um that you you um you you take care of them and and because they know their business better than you do by by a mile and and you know it's going to take you years to figure that out but you know design better than they do and and so you've got to bring those two things together um and and to create a mess so you need to bring your understandings to Bear uh on their you know on their sort of on their space and that's when that happens it's it's magic I remember you know moving um there was there was a um a consultancy we moved them into their space um and and they uh they really struggled to communicate what it is you know who who they who they were and what they're about um but when the when the managing director sort of um opened the space and because when they said when they when they met us they said we need three meeting rooms you know just like what we've had here you need to airlift our offices into the new space but when I started talking to them I realized they they needed a lot more than that um they they do sort of you know you know business um simulations um which is really it involves some very large maps and stuff like that it's really interesting work they do but it just it should it turned to me that there was very different ways of creating those big Maps and it went through very different series of processes so instead of three meeting rooms we gave them 12. but they needed [Music] one of those well so that's what they they felt that they needed three meeting rooms you know with Dividing Walls so it could be it could be all different kinds right so instead we gave them 12 meeting rooms some had some had walls you know in ride-on walls some had there was a couple that had the dividing wall so they had they had that feature um available to them and some were really small huddle rooms with large tables in them um and and there was a couple that were more just just for for video conferencing for for people around the world and then also we made the canteen nice and large so it was a meeting space in its own right so I'm counting that one too um but what that did was that just created all of the different because because what we found because they were sort of like focused on their big thing and when I when I as an outsider looked in and saw what was going on I saw lots of little pieces coming together in different kinds of ways like there was there was the tech team that was building that little bit here there was the strategy team it was and then there was the client team and and they were very different types of people did different dress codes even you know um you know some people wanted everybody to be in a suit and tie some people never wanted to wear you know anything but jeans and flip-flops you know there was just very different you can imagine the difference which is why we created that and and I remember when I went that first day the the managing director had opened it and and you know my client contact was the operations director she said there was not a dry eye in the space everybody felt everybody felt hurt like felt they all of a sudden felt like they had a space that was theirs and it was really interesting I went into you know I went in the end at the end of the day and every single meeting room was being used and the ride on boards were already encrusted with with with with with with text I mean like like little text all you know encrusted and then you know after a few months of coming back just to to see how it was she said it's funny because it's like it's broken up into clicks like you know there's certain people that like that meeting room and there's other people that like that meeting room you know it's amazing yeah you know you could say that create silence but no what it does is it creates it allows it allows them to be Super Hyper focused in a way that suits them so when they come out and they meet the rest of their team they are they are ready they're prepared and they're they're you know they've got a strong position and it's and you know and then they come together in those in those larger meeting rooms or in the canteen for example and and have a much more productive conversation yeah yeah we're talking about it how streaming it could be if you work in an office

and you really have to maybe you are you're almost there your brilliant idea is almost there and then someone is knocking on your door and said we we reserved this room I'm sorry you have to get out you have to get out and all your posts are there all your mapping and you have to take them off the wall yeah yeah that's yeah how how yeah that's not really functional and successful right yeah exactly and I think there's there's you know one of the key things in the digital first reality and the way we're going to be using offices now is to use the office as a tool for the operation of a business not just for the housing of Warm Bodies right yeah the the office was like a full office um was an illusion right it's just it was just lots of people all typing away you know on their keyboards doing stuff now if the marketing team was over here and the sales team was over there and the engineering team was over there but there was people in each of those working on a particular project how productive are they going to be when they're so you know spread apart so that's that's one of the key things and we're looking at Hospitality this is you know one of the things that that's really important that how Hospitality make that mix right so we need to create that mix of meeting rooms like you said um so that people are working in the most effective way in in their space so for example Apple we were creating what we call you know um you know a rethink space so it's it's the spaces right on so you know we've got that canteen a central Hub that we've identified as one of the core sort of design principles yeah sorry to interrupt you but yeah you are I know you are working with really kind of special rooms you have designed kind of not not really designed but the concept of the rooms so you can have maximum efficiency or productivity or fun or relaxation whatever is it yeah that's well yeah so every room is an outcome every element in the offices now exactly exactly and and because because in the presence first reality meeting rooms were a table of chairs right and it was a four-person meeting room it's an eight-person meeting room it's a 12 person it's a 20 person meeting room we ate each one of those numbers we know kind of roughly what that meeting room is it's a table with a lot more chairs yeah a lot longer desk or a bit wider desk design chair at the end that's right which room you are yeah at some place at some point in the 90s a TV showed up on one of those walls yeah but we still put you know like when we're still counting the number of desks we're still counting the chair that's got its back to the TV So eventually we kind of learned to not do that um and and so you know but but it's kind of uh you know um it's just but they're all it's all variation on one single theme of everybody sitting around a table having a having a discussion um a focused discussion but a discussion but the discuss the nature of those kinds of discussions has massively changed yet you know design hasn't hasn't you know caught up with that per se um so what we've identified is is the needs like you said every meeting has an outcome as a strategy and sort of like what happened with that other the business that had the different meeting rooms so we have to create like a hotel creates different rooms we have to think about meetings as a different kind of function and those functions have rules to them um so you know the the ideation spaces that need to sit near the canteen which because because Mark you and I are going to having a coffee and then like ah that thought and then we need to immediately go right right on somewhere just to kind of flesh out the thought to give it some you know give it some ideas because now all of a sudden we have the beginnings of a project right so we can then take that then we take that back and we work it through then then we have process rooms which I do this a lot from for manufacturers or for people that are big process so long narrow rooms it's it's often good in the spaces that are unloved or unwanted like near a core of a building and stuff like that there's not a whole lot of light you don't need light for this but it's a long wall so that you could do your River diagrams like little you know rows and rows and rows are posted so you can move that one over to there move that one up to there and that's really really effective we find you you have one on your wall uh over there right oh yeah my that's why yes there are nothing on my wall here but that's why I have a wide background with I need this for for more creative mapping it just it just what it does is it allows you to brainstorm get that stuff across um but then you know um but then you can start to you can start to move it around and and and and reflush it now those kinds of space so the ideation spaces are not spaces you can book and there's no doors on them because the idea the point of it is that somebody walks across and goes oh I see what you're working on I had this similar thing and then you know and then stuff the whole point of it is that it's it's it's it's it's in the sort of early stages of creation ideation and the more input you get the better and then then in those days in in the the the the workflow low type meeting rooms you can book you book for the day you can't you can't just book it by the hour you need it you need a day you know to go I mean because this stuff takes time and you need to go away for lunch and have a think and then come back and then you've got a fresh thinking mind of it and then all of a sudden other things lock into place so that's a day-long thing um and then we're creating we're also creating um huddle rooms which are so for teams that are driving so you know the project has has had an idea it's got buy-in from the business it's it's now been sort of fleshed out in terms of its strategy and now all of a sudden you're pushing to a deadline that's another type of meeting room that we're creating so it's got you know think um like the whole team comes together so the team for marketing the team from Dev the team from sales and everybody's working together to get this product or this this this offer sort of you know launched and shipped and so there's there's desks with computers there's a sofa with a screen there's right on boards there's round tables for collaboration so all those different modes and whenever you're whenever you're creating something you go from synthesis to analysis you are or creating something that doesn't exist then you step back and you look at it and go okay well what about that so you need to be able to go back and forth from synthesis to analysis really quickly so that's why these huddle rooms are there um you know I think pizza boxes because you know you're gonna be working long hours to try to get this you know get this this product you know shipped and so you can create something you can be screened you can get it up on them and you can get you get the the screen you get up on the screen get talking about it then you get back you know so you're going back and forth between that really important you book that one for a week straight yeah you can't book that for the day you've got to book that for a week because it's going to take you know it's going to take that time to get get through and and you know and that's your desk and that's your space for the week like you don't need your desk on the open floor while you're in that so and also you can you can see right like how that's going to be a lot more productive when teams from different parts of the business are all working together to get this across would they be that productive satin and open plan miles from each other you know just communicating via email or slack or whatever yeah that's right it's totally you can see that the productivity and also as a business leader do you really get a lot of insight into how well your project is doing when you look at an open plan and the people that are on that team are kind of disparately you know sectioned out throughout the space or do you understand a little bit more about your business if there's a whole bunch of people in the Huddle rooms you know there's a whole lot shipped but there's nothing going on in ideation you realize you've got a of a cliff head coming off you know and there's no projects coming down the pipeline so you've got to look so you get a lot more insight as a business leader in term in using it using an office that way so so if you're designing with all these rooms you can you can literally see how a business is doing and which phase and idea is so if your business is doing great or not yeah that's right and you could you could see how an idea makes its way through through the business by how people are moving and what spaces that they're using so imagine imagine how you know the office is a toolkit to see how people are working as they migrate from different types of spaces that are there for them to do these different types of types of work now everyone's different right every business is different so you're going to have to think about not every business is going to need one of those long walls yeah they might need but they might need something else they might need you know to understand the sales cycle they might need to be a a sales push so you get everybody in the sales room and and you know and and really you know and work a campaign where everyone's no one's allowed to sit you know there's there's all sorts of different you know penetrations of how you can think about this but just we have to move away from the meeting room as a six-person chairs around tables right it's a lot more nuanced than that in the digital first reality I think if you if you you really need you to to Advocate your clients on this level because you know you if you are an office designer you want to design your office you could start with presenting them an idea that's not the way to go and you need a strategy you need to to connect on a deeper level yep first thing you know uh what makes them tick yeah and then uh yeah well that they then you know what to do what kind of rooms they need but you really need to educate your client how how yeah you need to share the story up front so maybe you can get the deal with this story is it because you're separating yourself from the other designers yeah just dragging all these office chairs inside like oh this is this is the best new office chair we have yeah yeah that's not yeah that's again that's that's presence first because you know the office chairs you know how people are going to be you know what you're going to give them while they're sat at their desk all day long but now what are you going to give them that allows them to be their best selves at work what are you going to give them that allows them to be um more open and collaborative and also to I go back I go back to a study Gallup did um years ago and it was really fascinating um where they talked about how you know because when I was doing gallup's offices in the shower the the the one of the senior vice presidents came over and he said to me we have this misconception society that people have to be well-rounded so if you're bad at maths you're going to go and and you know get you some math training it goes to a certain extent you do have to shore up so that you hit some sort of basic levels but if someone's not naturally talented at you're going to very quickly hit the law of diminishing returns so the more that you try to teach that creative person to do spreadsheets you know there's only a limit to where they're going to get to yeah but the more you create that creative you teach that creative person Photoshop or InDesign that it will be infinite what they could do what they because their passion they will tie in yeah they want they want to use the visual yes exactly so so people do sit on a spectrum so but people don't have to be well-rounded he said to me teams have to be well-rounded and I just I just sat back and just thought that's fascinating where so you get a creative person who's just infinitely you know good at the more you teach them the more they'll learn and and go and then you get somebody's good at spreadsheets the more you teach that person that's good at spreadsheets about InDesign and Photoshop they might get there but there's there's you know but you need to I you need to you need to design an environment who invites them to show their true personality or their you know it I don't feel uh it doesn't feel okay if you're hanging up a visual and a white wall in a boardroom it's not like it's not it's not hanging there in the right place it doesn't feel right and you don't you cannot hang it on a flat screen either so you need to make a picture from it make it digital first and then put it in the PowerPoint that's for most people not the uh not the way to go is it yeah exactly so so when you and and when you so and and that's the beauty of having these well-rounded teams is that you get all of those diverse different skill sets the power of that is and this is where you know you know Gallup are really you know that's what they push towards is that that that understanding those different those different personality types or different work types getting them together um so that they complement which on one another respect one another's differences and compliment one another it's just it there's it's just an infinite level where you can go and for us as designers how do we create you know the then we think about an office space and groups of people that are very different and how do we create a space a for those groups of people to get together but also be for those different groups of people to come together and share their idea and share their different work modes and and therefore benefit a business you know and have a um a huge impact on the productivity on the creativity The Innovation communication um and and ultimately shorten sales Cycles so that you can so you know because what they'll be providing will be you know next level so so you need to explore how they how they move um that's right yeah yeah how they move how they communicate it's probably one of the most important things and and setting up tools for communication you know with within a business within a space uh because that's that's kind of you know the the the key thing and how an idea makes its way through some people are much better communicators when they're at a desk and a table and some much better communicators when they're sat on a sofa some are much better communicators when they're standing you know and presenting um you know I know those of us that have been through architecture school we've gotten very good at standing and presenting in our crits because that was every single week we had to do you know it's like so so I get you know I'm quite feel quite natural to me when I'm standing and presenting when I'm sat at a table presenting I feel really uncomfortable you know what I mean yeah yeah I'm not one of those people that could sit with my laptop and give a presentation you know I've had to learn over the years but that's but that's normal for other people in business right so you know yeah we had that we have the bar at the Young from Australia she's a behavioral uh analyst design analyst and he was talking about her four temperaments maybe if you're listening to the podcast and joining the live show now you can go to uh Institute of terryimpect.com Deborah we have more about these four uh temperaments this Force for our personality types how did it write how do you how do they communicate how they how do they behave yeah yeah it's really funny but if you if you're able to well is it worth a conversation to talk with uh with HR in the company absolutely vital absolutely vital no that's that's it's a really important point because Human Resources yeah and this is this is a mo yeah and that's and it's really important to do that because you are in a mode of experimentation right now because you know we don't just flip on the switch to digital first and we know what we're doing right we're stepping into a whole new reality right so that that it's really important that we stick close to HR so that we're Gathering the information of how people work they are the best place to give you really candid feedback on how things are working and and it's an experience it's very much an experimentation right now and with anything experimentation you need to use a scientific method you know you need to to test you know form a hypothesis test the hypothesis modify the hypothesis test that modification modify test modify and you need to go in that you need to go in that cycle and you can't think that it's you know it's what Anthony Slumbers always says build measure learn but the problem in real estate is we just build never bothered measuring never bothered learning because the president's first reality meant we didn't have to in the digital first reality we are going to have to measure and learn and one of the most important things you know one of the ways in which people are doing this now is going into Flex offices so at a fascinating conversation with John priest who's the CPO of Hub Australia um about how they're they're taking cues from Hospitality to build this sort of stuff and they're seeing a lot of of businesses coming in they know that those businesses will be gone in the next year or two years but they're using the flex offices as a space to as a place to um experiment in a low consequence environment so it doesn't cost them that much it's kind of built into the thing so they can and then that's and then they see other people are using it because the most important thing is how the people are using it and that's like you said the the HR side of things you know and and you look at someone like Dave Cairns who's who's who's you know in Toronto or well and Princess Ron now but you know he's a flex office broker with with CBRE who's absolutely flying right now because businesses are doing this all over the shop you know working to find that rights measure because in the presence first reality it was just kind of you know a bunch of offices you know more even more desks a few meeting rooms a reception and a canteen yes was it now things are so different now like that you really have to get under the hood every business is going to be different so and all these all these worlds are blending and yeah that's why it's not it doesn't have to do Lucas and office it doesn't have to look as a homework like you just have to look as a restaurant you can do whatever you like actually yeah that's right yeah that's right and and you know fortune favors the Bold as as Caleb Parker would say who runs a company called bold and he's saying exactly the same thing that John and Dave are saying is that you know there's a massive growth in the need for companies to test their new space so that digital first reality it's being born right before our eyes and the place where it's being tested um and and I'm so glad John's on today because he was one of the first people that you know for the crown estate he saw this coming years ago and set up the crown estate's very first flex offering which is probably one of the best ones in London but that that Vision to be able to to see that coming has now set them in in in in good stead so understanding that things are going to be you know your idea isn't going to be necessarily the final one but at least it sets you off on a path of Discovery that's really really important for business so you can you can stay connected as a designer for for over years you can grow with them actually yeah it's not you do your job Final design and maybe they can call me in a few years you can you can every year you can come back and see what's going on and what a great way to have a relationship right as opposed to seeing you once every every time you have a lease renewal I mean that's just you know that and that's the way it was in in in in presence first it was in a great great business model as well yeah if you stay connected with your clients well correct and you grow with them and yeah and you learn other things from other clients that can possibly you know benefit you know your your other clients in that cross fertilization of ideas starts to become at scale something really really important and you know the the other the other side of it is that that you know you look at retail you know as another type of thing when they they design something new they test it ruthlessly you know one of one of my good friends is the head of design at Apple he designs all of the the the um um the the kiosks and and the furniture that goes into the Apple Stores and he said to me look you know we're we're tracking that stuff closely and if no one interacts with that within two three weeks it's gone we rip it out it's gone but but do we really do that for offices are we ruthlessly measuring in that sort of way absolutely not and and we we need to now I mean retail went through an absolute bloodbath in in in 2013 here in the UK where you know retail outlets were going bust you know left right and center but you looked at the Common Thread was they were just they did a present they had a presence first reality for retailers they just packed it full of product expected people to come you know which does not work anymore like you know actually the stores that had a mix between online reality and and presence reality did really well and bricks and clicks yeah and exactly and use their use their bricks and mortar stores as a as a as a museum as a gallery so there was fewer product but just just you know seriously considered in how it was placed that same thinking it will will be what translates into you know to office thinking and it's you know it's it's absolutely vital that um for businesses to be thinking in that way um oh great great uh Kristoff yeah so um well wonderful story and my mind is going in all directions and I'm like how are these rooms looking like that's that's really really cool so it yeah and if if I get the chance to design an officer again I will definitely dive into these rooms and see how it can fit their uh their parents and officer yeah so so well to to get a the final your best advice the conclusion of it what if you are an office designer and you want to make a real impact with your designs what is that you need to do well I think the the you know the importance it's all about the people it goes back to like what you said about getting HR involved the difference that you can have in people's mindset and their everyday work is just it's it's one of the most important it's in a bit sacrosanct it's the you know you've got to be putting yourselves in those people's shoes how they're going to be using I hate calling them end users I just I've always hated that phrase because you just you just think of them as a number when you think of end users these are people with families with that it might be caretakers for sick members of the family they might have small children they might have disabilities of their own they might have anxieties and challenges and things that they face or they might just be you know really well excited about the work that they're doing or they believe in the company that they've just joined and they want to make a difference there's there's a lot more you know that work life balance that people talk about that is that was blurred a long time ago and it's actually become completely merged because people are choosing doing work that suits their values and who they want to be in life so that you know that that's now you know long gone all these people bring all their stories into your building is it yeah that's what that's right and you've got to you've you know and so it's their building really you've got to be this the channel that passes through that that that that takes your understanding of design that allows them to be you know their their best selves um and you know there's the whole thing about bringing your whole self to work but but I think it's kind of bringing your best self to work um so that you can you can be your whole self in in certain ways and the idea is that people know that they're considered people know that they're thought about people know that this is a space for them and and can and can make the best use of that and that's that's that that inclusivity that that ability to create an understanding for people and the impact that you have on people it's not just enough to have a dual instagramable space I mean that that will fade within weeks um that's not important to the the fundamental understanding of how people are enjoying their life no it's really you need to create an environment where they can play where they can grow where they take care of you it's not work and life it's it's life it's all life wonderful so is the office that Kristoff well the office isn't dead just the way we always used it great Clash before we go to the Q a only for the people uh who are joining us live I um well I would like to thank you for listening to another episode of the beyond the theory design podcast I love to share any stories with you so if you like this podcast too well please rate it on your favorite podcast platform so Spotify and Apple and Google you know our internet works so this way you help us to reach even more creatives worldwide because together we have the power to design these worlds thanks a lot thanks a lot Christoph Dubose we definitely correct the office code we did thank you for that yeah thanks I'm uh inspired by your uh future perspective on the on the new digital first reality can't wait to see more of these uh hybrid uh working spaces I know for sure a lot of people will have so much more fun and satisfaction in the jobs if you design it this way so they will be much happier and at the end that's what counts right that is yeah indeed so um thanks keep up the good work and thanks so much for having me Mark I really appreciate it thank you my pleasure all right and the next beyond the interior design a life that's with Lorena gaziola she's an international acclaimed design expert with more than 25 years experience in the business of property mainly residential design she's a leading a team of female creatives and maybe that's the part of the magic she's able to connect with audiences on an emotional level so we have Lorena Gaxiola in our next live podcast it's on Tuesday 22 November 11 A.M Central European Time so that's uh one hour later than we've started today thank you