Buckle up for an architectural escapade that will whirl you through the realms of design, innovation, and sheer human ingenuity. I'm thrilled to welcome Cas Esbach from MVRDV, the creative powerhouse behind some of the most visually stunning and environmentally conscious structures on our planet.
Imagine embarking on a journey that's part architectural digest, part environmental love letter, with a generous dash of human connection woven through every story. Today, we're not just talking about buildings; we're exploring vibrant ecosystems like Rotterdam's Markthal and Amsterdam's The Valley, where architecture dances harmoniously with it's users.
As Cas peels back the curtain on how these iconic projects came to life, prepare to be regaled with tales of challenges bested, innovations born from the wildest dreams, and the sheer joy of creating spaces that celebrate our collective humanity. It's a narrative where every brick and beam tells a story of passion, purpose, and playful creativity. From the awe-inspiring round mirrored facade of Rotterdam's Depot, reflecting the entire city skyline to the verdant valleys of urban landscapes, this conversation promises to be an eye-opening exploration of what happens when imagination meets the ground running.
So, if you're ready to have your mind expanded and your heart filled with a newfound appreciation for the spaces we inhabit and the environments we cherish, this is your golden ticket. With Cas's wisdom as our guide, we'll dive deep into the symbiotic relationship between groundbreaking design and practical functionality, all while keeping the vibe as light and exhilarating as a walk through your favorite city park. This isn't just an architectural deep dive—it's a celebration of the beauty and brilliance that humanity can achieve when we dream big and build with heart.
Go to: beyondinteriordesign.CLUB
Buckle up for an architectural escapade that will whirl you through the realms of design, innovation, and sheer human ingenuity. I'm thrilled to welcome Cas Esbach from MVRDV, the creative powerhouse behind some of the most visually stunning and environmentally conscious structures on our planet.
Imagine embarking on a journey that's part architectural digest, part environmental love letter, with a generous dash of human connection woven through every story. Today, we're not just talking about buildings; we're exploring vibrant ecosystems like Rotterdam's Markthal and Amsterdam's The Valley, where architecture dances harmoniously with it's users.
As Cas peels back the curtain on how these iconic projects came to life, prepare to be regaled with tales of challenges bested, innovations born from the wildest dreams, and the sheer joy of creating spaces that celebrate our collective humanity. It's a narrative where every brick and beam tells a story of passion, purpose, and playful creativity. From the awe-inspiring round mirrored facade of Rotterdam's Depot, reflecting the entire city skyline to the verdant valleys of urban landscapes, this conversation promises to be an eye-opening exploration of what happens when imagination meets the ground running.
So, if you're ready to have your mind expanded and your heart filled with a newfound appreciation for the spaces we inhabit and the environments we cherish, this is your golden ticket. With Cas's wisdom as our guide, we'll dive deep into the symbiotic relationship between groundbreaking design and practical functionality, all while keeping the vibe as light and exhilarating as a walk through your favorite city park. This isn't just an architectural deep dive—it's a celebration of the beauty and brilliance that humanity can achieve when we dream big and build with heart.
Go to: beyondinteriordesign.CLUB
It's all about human scale, public spaces, everything's connected these, you know, like you're saying shouting out your window to your kids. If that's our ambition, that should be on the urban scale, on the architecture scale and also on interior design scale.
Speaker 2:Hello, good afternoon. Familiar faces here and new faces. I like that. Hi there, hi Nuk, hi Leen, ilona Well, you already see Kass Hi. I'm really excited today for this podcast with the world famous MVRDV project leader.
Speaker 1:Mauricio welcome.
Speaker 2:Well, it's, if you are attending more lives of the Beyond the Terrorism podcast. We know we just started exactly why in time. We cannot wait for other attendees because of their problem, that they are laid up and we want to move on. So you're here. So well, let's start. Let's start the official podcast for today With a proper introduction of our guests, bonjour.
Speaker 1:Hey, ciao.
Speaker 2:Good day Hola.
Speaker 1:Hello.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Beyond the Terrorism podcast the podcast where the art and science of interior design needs to break the new branch. Whether you're a long time listener or joining us just for the first time. I'm thrilled to hear you.
Speaker 2:I'm Mark Muskes, by the way, your host and interior designer practically since well, I could walk and, alongside my friend Sven van Buuren, we were in our own successful interior design firm and, of course, the Beyond the Terrorism Club. All about unlocking the full potential of experienced designers like you. Today's episode is something special. We're going to live to chat with Kas Echtbach from MVRDV, an architectural firm that's all about creating spaces that make people smile and think. Kas has been with MVRDV since 2018 and has left this mark on some pretty incredible projects around the world. He's got stories from working on projects like the Chantataris and the mesmerizing Valley in Amsterdam that are all about pushing boundaries and thinking differently about what buildings and spaces can be, with a mix of technical skill and creative player promise experience before joining MVRDV. One of those is the Bjarg Ingels Group.
Speaker 2:Kas has the perfect guess to dive into the how-to's of designing spaces that truly stand out. So grab your favorite drink, settle in and let's get inspired together. It's going to be a great chat about making the world a more adventurous place that resonates deeply with the human spirit. One design and a dark. I'm André Trevon as a guest in the Beyond the Diamonds on podcast. Project Leader at the world's famous MVRDV Kas Echtbach welcome.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Marc. Thanks for this nice introduction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. I know you're extremely busy with your projects and it was hard to schedule a podcast after all, but I'm glad you're here. I truly appreciate that, so thanks a lot, let's get started. At the Beyond the Terrison Club, one of the things we do is we teach the designers how to develop their own brand vision, the brand promise, and MVRDV has an excellent one. It says we create happy and adventurous places. That's a wonderful brand promise. If you stop working with the company, yeah, indeed, I think that's.
Speaker 1:It's a nice brand promise. Sound so corporate, but it's a nice. I think MVRDV's vision really is clear. We are trying to do something exciting out there, adventurous and really trying to push the boundaries. So I see it more as a brand promise, but like a design ethic and the way you approach each problem. So yeah, just so brand promise feels very corporate to me when you say that.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, maybe it's probably more like an attention or the impact you always want to create, right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And that's also very funny that sometimes we ask ourselves is this design or what we're doing now, is it MVRDV enough? Are we doing, are we pushing the boundaries, or are we asking these questions that we, or that we I only work here for five years but that the people, the MVRDV, vinnie Maas, natalie De Vries and Jacob von Reis have? So that's the MVRDV, the intention that they've been building up for the past 25 plus years, and are we fulfilling that vision enough? And that's what we're trying to do? I think yeah, and it all starts with asking the right questions that we are back fan of that.
Speaker 2:our main question is always why, why, why, why? So we get into that later. The second part of the of your vision of your attic is like another social dream realistic and remarkable architecture for a changing world. It's a lot, but I do hear. I hear a lot of words in another tip, so you're challenging yourself on that. One Social has to do with adventurers, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think. I think they the. It seems really wide, but the idea is that you always ask questions and that you always try to push the boundary by the questions that you ask. So what are we creating here? And so a client comes to us and asks us could you create a green office space? And we think, okay, that means okay, a little bit of green here and there. But actually what is the most important thing that we can do? Actually, what is the most green office space that you can create? Or what is the most socially interactive space that you can create? So it's not just about that generic, safe question, but it's about pushing that boundary and not being scared to ask that to the maximum question possible. And that's, I think.
Speaker 1:Winnie has a really nice. The founding partner has a really nice lecture. It's called. It's about what's next. It's this question what's so? We've seen these green office spaces, these green buildings. What's the next version of that? And how do we as architects, also continue to build on what's been done before us and don't try to create something 100% out of the blue, but learn from the past and try to go further than we then by grabbing onto those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like your attitude of how can we create the most green or the most advantageous or the most. I really like that. So you're literally pushing the boundaries on that one. If you just say it's a green office or building or interior design or whatever, it's just well, probably it will be just another green building, right yeah?
Speaker 1:yeah, Indeed, then you're just another. You know a very generic stock image. That's what you become, I think. So it's nice to push yourself and to create something that is something else than that nobody is thought of, maybe sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it might be scary. It might sound scary even when you are a small architect firm or an interior design studio. Maybe you have this crazy, wild and bold ideas. But how, what's the idea of? How do you get this to the surface? How do you get well, probably, connected with the client in such a way that they are open for this bold it's also in the way you communicate your design and communicate your ambition.
Speaker 1:So, hey, we all want to create this green office space, right? It's good for you, it's good for this, it's good for that. We research it, we develop it in a way that it almost becomes and explain it to the client in a way, in all of these like an amalgamation of decisions, which all are. Of course we want green on every floor. Of course we want everybody to be able to go outside during working environment. Of course we want, etc. Etc, etc. And then the result is something insane or out there and something that pushes the boundaries. So it's just adding steps of very normal things that we all agree on and then just accepting that those are the truth, and then the result is there, it's already. The client maybe decided it, almost by himself, you know, because it's very clear that the final result is there.
Speaker 2:It sounds easy, just adding an extra step. Probably this is the strategy, one of the great keys actually, from creating this at French and Happy Places and creating this bulb.
Speaker 1:So you take what already is.
Speaker 2:You show them the extra step and then probably yeah, well, the rest they do understand, right? Everybody knows what a green building is, so you only have to explain the extra step what you are adding True In some way, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's also really nice to be able to challenge people and to make them excited about creating something that will be impactful for thousands of years, almost right Like the Marta or the Depeau, before they're built. You don't know, maybe, what it means to build a building like this and you're only focused on that, but now on every bag about Rotterdam, on these tote bags, you have the Marta and the Depeau there. The impact of this architecture is just way larger than the building itself and I think that's what why people want to push the boundaries. Also because you want to be there and you want to do something exciting and you know. Next level.
Speaker 2:Yeah, can you explain for the people that don't know? The Marta in Rotterdam I visited once. It's an amazing Well what is it?
Speaker 1:It's from quite far before my time, it feels, but it's a plot right in the city center of Rotterdam, where housing was needed to be built next to a market square. So what they did or what the people designed, the architects designed was to take these apartments and slowly step them back and then, once you're at the top, they touch and they create a covered roof over a big open plaza, which then becomes this indoor marketplace where all these little food courts have set up and it's really filled with all of these, yeah, really high quality, really local or maybe not local, but really high quality food products and services like that.
Speaker 1:So it's just yeah, so it's stacking houses in a way, or bending them.
Speaker 2:It's a big arts right. It's a kind of art. It's an arts and there's an open end, the beginning and end, and in the arts, all everything which is building is our apartment stacked on each other. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And so you get the moment that you're in your apartment and you can look down if you're in living in the top of the arts and you can look down at all the people shopping for the market, and that's just this magical experience. You know, and trying to imagine that building before it was built is very hard to do, but the moment it's there, it's like yeah, of course we should do it like this. This is yeah, it works, it's full of life. You know, every day I walk by it in them because I live on the other side there. So when I see all the tourists that go there, so it's so attractive and so exciting, it's Because we never saw it before.
Speaker 2:Something like this, yeah yeah, something like that, we never saw it before, so it's worthy experience, right?
Speaker 1:It wasn't an experience. Do you see?
Speaker 2:that way, the new things you're developing. Do you see it as an experiment, or is it just a racial, logical next step for humanity or for the artistic world?
Speaker 1:What is it? Yeah, so this is, of course, I have to say, these are all my opinions and that's really important. And I do see all of these projects as different experiments and each one testing something and seeing if it works, and then going back and looking what was great, what do we love about this and what's so. I do see each one of these as a really outrageous experiment which really leaves these great impacts are on the world. I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the last time. When we first met, you said like we're looking for answers we're not sure about Like hey, we never did this before, or how. What happens if we do that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, indeed, indeed. So it's these questions that, like the one before the most green office space you don't know what that is yet, you don't know what that will look like yet when you start designing it, you can't even visualize it yet. So by asking these questions, you can also push the design forward without this final image stock photo, which is ready for you already at the start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wonderful. Yeah, I truly like this. I do see it as an experiment because we never experienced it before. We don't know how it works and what it can bring us, what kind of visions we got. So later on we go to talk about the Valley in Amsterdam, because, that's well, it's called the rock. So what you're telling me, what you're telling other interior designers and architects, do you want to? Well, I think I can guess you want some, but do you want?
Speaker 2:to challenge them to be weird or to be new. What is it that you would like to?
Speaker 1:No, just be boring and go home at six, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, of course it's not going to be boring, but what is?
Speaker 1:I think we should all push ourselves if you want, right, but it's a personal choice. But for me, I would say, what makes my day exciting is pushing myself every day to see what's next. What can we do more? What can we bring? How can we bring this further? How do we stay critical? How do we keep our vision aligned? Hey, last week we were saying this is what we want to do. Are we still doing that with our final design? Can we? Are we still confident that we are answering the questions well enough? Should we stop with the project if the quality is not there? It's these types of things. Yeah, very critical, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I do see kind of. We discussed it earlier. We had a lot of chats with other podcast guests but some kind of childhood magic that's involved. How do you see it when you work on those projects? How are your adventurous ideas as a kid or building?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see it more as a diamond that we're building as a team and everybody is pushing on this thing and somebody new comes in and tries to say, hey, that doesn't make sense. Everybody's pushing and then at the end, through all this pressure, and we've cooked this perfect little thing that we're really proud of, and everybody there's nothing you can knock off anymore and you create this design, which is so attacked from all sides.
Speaker 2:So it's really, we're really confident in it and we're really happy with the results and we feel like that we could defend the result at any moment.
Speaker 1:we're not worried about it, so we're confident to bring out to the world this design as an answer to one of these questions that we posed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great yeah. In the introduction I said the projects, the architecture can make people smile and think, but obviously there are a lot of haters around in this world again.
Speaker 1:You have haters and lovers with NVRDT.
Speaker 2:That's always a sign of success, because then you know you're doing something extreme when you have haters. So I really like that. Well, me, it makes me smile because I think what is this? I never saw this before and I love those extreme experiences. Now the other end it makes you think like, hey, what is?
Speaker 1:it. What can we learn about?
Speaker 2:again, what's next? Every time we ask with this extreme building, what's next? But if you are questioning that, you keep going. We keep moving forward with our great profession To do extremes, to grow as humanity. Is it something like that, or do I see it in the wrong way? Is it growing as humanity with this kind of buildings or living? How do you see it? It's fun, obviously. It's wonderful that we can do this. I had to construct these crazy ideas of new shapes but what's the extra impact?
Speaker 1:I think the so. What is the extra impact that we have on the humanity?
Speaker 2:That's what you're asking yeah, we have to live in it, we have to work in it, we have to live with it.
Speaker 1:That's a very big question, it's beyond the theories on here, but I think there is a way that you're, by asking these questions you're asked and creating these answers and realizing them, you're once again creating one of these stepping stones that somebody else can step on and somebody else can step on, and so in that way, you have a really good impact, I think, on the world. And for example, I think the depot, which was just this huge mirrored coffee cup. It looks like yeah.
Speaker 1:Middle of in Rotterdam, next to this old museum. This is the depot of Boymans van Beunen museum, and the Boymans van Beunen had so much art that it needed to find a place to exhibition it, but they had it all in storage. So what they wanted was how can we make our storage something that's also exhibited and people can still enjoy it? I don't know all the numbers about this, but it's like a lot of their art. Only small fraction of it is actually in the museum and the rest is hidden away. So then we came in with an idea like hey, what if we just make that this great space for for enjoyment and showcase all this really cool and exciting work people are doing by the screens restoration, cataloging all that stuff and bring visitors into that space. And after doing that, you know the whole world was like hey, what?
Speaker 2:we can do this.
Speaker 1:we can make our shared, our storage closet as a part of our as our art. You know, we can combine our exhibition space with this back back, back door space and then you know that changes the world. I think a project like that, it just tweaks everybody's brain for a second like, hey, oh, yeah, that's possible. We should do that too, maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I see some questions in the chat about hey, can we, can we, can you give the link for some of the projects? Well, we will prepare a page if you're joining us live. It's not ready yet, it will be launched after the after the live podcast. But if you're just listening on your favorite podcast platform, you can go to Institute of Ventary, impactcom, slash, mbrdb, or you can look on our blog or integration, and then we will. We will mention a few of the projects of mbrdb that we are talking about right now in the podcast. So you have a. You have a visual as well here. Well, let's go. Let's continue with the valley, the valley for the people that are joining us live. Go to Google on the valley, amsterdam, and you have lots of pictures. I think you will recognize them from a lot of LinkedIn posts. I saw them last year a lot talking about circularity, about new ways of living. So it's good to mention you're not you went out totally fully involved in this project, right, gus?
Speaker 1:No, so it was a. It started quite a while ago as a competition which was won by a different team, and I remember that I worked on it a bit and then I did it, and then you know it's one of these projects like you know, to build a building takes quite a while and there's moments where you're working more on it and less on it and more focused on it. But I was one of those people that kind of, you know, flew in and flew out in the process, which makes me extremely lucky because I think it's one of the most exciting projects that we recently completed. So it's, yeah, was a great honor to have worked on it, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was, I was well, I was truly happy because I was invited on a kind of network event party in one of the penthouses. So I literally went there, had the full experience, walking through it in a house or home or a hospitality combination was it Was not really clean, so can you explain? You call it a rock, right? That's the extra name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you are hanging out in the Zaital area, all you see are these glass towers, right, and it's really inhumane. Maybe and it's the way these glass towers you know it gives a really formal environment. So the valley is in some way a reaction to this very structured environment by going in a different direction. You start, maybe with this glassy towers yeah, so the outside of the valley is still very much glass and then you start to carve away at this, at this shape, and then you create something new and something extra. You don't just carve away for fun or just because you want to be different, but you carve away, you know, for multiple reasons, to create a lot of identity, to give people to you know when you what's the?
Speaker 1:I live in this horrible 10-story tall building and all the apartments are exactly the same and I don't feel in any way connected to this building at all. But now everybody in valley can say, hey, I live right there and you will never forget that you lived right there, because you get this identity and connection to this building and by creating all of these spaces and people have a different relationship with their building. So some people have these balconies which are huge and completely in the sun all day, and other ones have way smaller ones, but with two-sided planters, so they have more green on there. So it's all these.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's zoom out. It's a kind of rock, like you said, and you have public space on the 15th floor, still 10th, thank, you All the way.
Speaker 1:at the top there's a bar, I think. You can climb all the way up through the middle, through this five-story or six-story middle space, and along there you have the pizza place, a little restaurant, and it's all activated and I think there will be more exciting things in the future and it's this whole public space which is also completely missing in the Zytos where you can, then you know, the user is invited to walk up and anybody can go there at any time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was the Basically, my first impression was can I walk here, can I go here? Oh, it's a public space and another stair, another balcony, and then I heard some noises. It was after the network event and I went hey, there's a bar. On which floor am I? How does it work? It's completely new rules and, on the other hand, so logic, like you're just walking in a well hollanda's flat, so you don't have mountains and you know you're not used to have no level livings, and like a village built on a mountain. So this was kind of strange that you need to go up to go to something and it's just open.
Speaker 1:What's nice about that is you don't only create this space and you say look how beautiful it is. You don't experience it and you're a part of it and you have your own dialogue with the building as you walk up and explore this corner. And the last time I was there, somebody had left a bike somewhere and it was just really good. We're like why is there a? Who took this bike up here? But it's just these. Everybody has their own relationship with this rock building. I think it's. I think especially that you're able to connect to this building and you're able to walk through it and it's not just an art piece for the In the distance.
Speaker 1:I think that's what makes it a next level thing, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the real power is literally this identity that you have as a, that you live there and all this kind of mixed facilities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's indeed Indeed. I think there's like a multiple thought processes coming together in this building, because M4V has also done a lot of research into porosity and identity, and you can have a straight tower, but the moment you move one little block, everybody knows where they want to live or they want to explore. If you just move one little window in or out, that's the most exciting moment. And then, taking that to the what's next question, how can we pull that further? And further results in a building like a valley, I think.
Speaker 2:How can we learn from that building?
Speaker 1:What can you learn? Yeah, what can we learn from that build? We got a knack.
Speaker 2:here we see how people use the space.
Speaker 1:What's the power Is?
Speaker 2:it something to copy, Like this kind of what kind of qualities are really valuable?
Speaker 1:to copy, for I think there's a few things that I take away from it. That I love a lot Is there's the conceptual clarity of it. Outside is office, hardcore. Inside is human and accessible and broken apart. You can feel that in every moment when you're there.
Speaker 1:Because it wasn't easy to build this rock. The easiest thing that everybody could have done is just say, okay, we put this rock and we just do the rocky facade and we do the standard natural stone pattern, zigzag it. But then when we saw the images that that created and we reflected on those, we thought no, that's not it, it needs to be completely wild. Then we asked a bunch of people we have a lot of really smart people in the office and they wrote all of these scripts in a way that you could then create a pattern which almost never repeats along the whole building, which then strengthens the feeling of this natural rock.
Speaker 1:So if you walk through there, I think there's a few different sizes. Then what's really cool about this is you have all of these really natural stacking of these natural stone panels. Yeah, by creating all these different sizes, you also reduce the amount of loss when you're cutting at the natural stone factory. So there's all these really funny things happening in the valley, but for me, what I think is this conceptual clarity is so powerful in the valley and it's pushed all the way to the max. I guess when you went to it you also walked through that interior space downstairs with the cutter above your head. Yeah, with the glass ceiling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean later on I was on the glass ceiling and a few floors down it was dark. I was like, wow, this is this, can I?
Speaker 1:walk on it.
Speaker 2:And you have the garden over there and then you have this human space scale. Yeah, when you are on top of the building, it feels really human.
Speaker 1:This is when you see from the distance. It's like what is this.
Speaker 2:This is an human right. I think that's the magic for there we talked about. We always say if you have quality questions, you can create a quality life. It comes from every client of us. If you are designing, you're creating something. If you have quality questions, you can create a quality life for them. What are some of the quality questions you were asking to the well, when you knew what kind of target audience was living there or working there? What were some questions you were asking?
Speaker 1:Because you had a basic question. Obviously we wanted a building.
Speaker 2:Oh, what was the initial question? What did we ask?
Speaker 1:and we already need to create, yeah, a building where housing and office and commercial spaces are coming together on the South side to us, and that's it question.
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 1:Then different teams form all over the Netherlands or all over the world and start to create different answers to it. Then our answer was all about embracing public life and identity and creating a lot more identity for the side of the side of us, because this is one of the best plots on the side of us. When you arrive there from the metro, it's the first thing you see. It's extremely powerful and important. So we had to do something there, which was, you know, ask these questions and answer them in a next level way, and that's the way you can win a project like this and build it actually.
Speaker 2:I'm going to have. There was one example you told me about. I want that. You are yelling out of the window to your kids. Yeah, imagine that on this sky high building, that you are somewhere on the top floor living with your family. You do have kids. They are playing outside in the kind of rooftop garden or whatever. You just yell out of the window Like you have a normal house grounded at this level.
Speaker 1:I think there was a this is really for me.
Speaker 2:This is a kind of quality that a lot of art devs don't touch, because it's a kind of sculpture and a kind of concept and maybe you love to live in it, but the other hand is like, okay, this scale is not right, it doesn't fit humanity.
Speaker 1:It's an amazing building, but that's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, indeed the connection, exploring this little scale over there, yeah.
Speaker 1:The human scale is really clear in this building and you almost forget how big it actually is when you're there, and that's extremely interesting to experience. So it was. I felt like a tourist.
Speaker 2:I was like on the first floor. I was like, oh, this is a cool view.
Speaker 1:Okay, another stairs. Oh, there's more. Another picture.
Speaker 2:Another picture and then, when does it stop? Yeah, it's really cool. Yeah Well, amazing. And interior design. I'm going to make the connection. You're an architect, you're focused on buildings architecture. How important was the interior design? And I saw the public space and I saw one apartment. Public space was the same concept.
Speaker 1:I think so. There was an interior design. So within M4DV we have interior designers, but for this project there was also an external interior design firm Highly first, and I think there is like this also is kind of telling you. Last time I was trying to figure out what is the difference between architecture and interior design and I don't really see it so much. And the same with urban. I think it's all one big lump of. It's interesting that we split it actually.
Speaker 1:But because if we design this building with ambition, that it's all about human scale, public spaces, everything's connected, these, like you're saying, shouting out your window to your kids If that's our ambition, that should be on the urban scale, on the architecture scale and also on interior design scale. We should all choose to embrace that ambition and celebrate it together. I think so, yeah, that's what you see in Valley also, this ambition for this really powerful concept, the broken down office building in this public space and creating this route all the way up, and the seating arrangements and green, and everybody can experience and see everything, and I think that's what you should. Yeah, it should all work together. I don't think you could put a vibrant red knitted chair there or something. There needs to be something that fits in this natural landscape.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's always a discussion. There are a lot of architects that even prescribe the window dressing or rules for the inside, and then you have this identity or the end user. How do you see that?
Speaker 1:Of course, the best concept could be that you cannot sleep on a rock. Let's call it that way the bad. But the bad is also a rock. But that's a good say. You say that to me.
Speaker 2:You're smiling, you're smiling, but it would be a little bit of a smiley. You're smiling, you're smiling, but it would be a little bit of a smiley.
Speaker 1:I think there's a challenge to that to also not forget that we're human beings and we need to sit on something comfortable and we need to be able to have a piece of red clothing or a red book in your shelf and also want to strengthen it. So there's something there. I think that's about the human requires something and those are the elements we have to play with. But I think I would always push for this great concept and I think when you start to, I don't know how people would approach interior design, because I've never done it so much as for my own house or something, and even that I think. When I say that, I think yeah, that's a little bit rude to say it that way, because I think interior design is way more than that, but I've never done it so much.
Speaker 1:But I cannot imagine that you just go to the room and you say this is the room and you don't think about what city you're in, what country. You don't think about the people that are going to be using it, what the function is and what the outside material is and what the neighbors. I think those are also things that play a role in your design. I can imagine so, and the same is the concept for the building. So they can. I think it's a marriage, a wedding of urbanism, architecture, interior design and all come together.
Speaker 2:I see, I hear, I do hear very clear design principle. It's again, you're the attic, the impact you want to create and get out of the most of the concept. So you would definitely, if you had to do, or if you did, the interior design exactly as the building from the outside, you were pushing the boundaries again, going to the max and see how much rock can be involved to live in this set, to have this, to feel the same identity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it doesn't mean that it is rock, that is one thing, but the ambition is to create spaces with identity and where people feel they know where they're living. So that's a part of that story also. Yeah, so that should be in the interior design as well. I think that people that it's not the cookie cutter repeated kitchen, it's not the cookie cutter Ikea bed in the corner, it's something next level. I think that would fit here, though maybe not reasonable, but I think that would be very cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a kind of storytelling as well. How did you know where you are place making Exactly? Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. I love that, and it's sometimes it's hard that the architects in the interior design are not working well enough, because I'm always curious if you have a really extreme building or even just designed a residential villa, I want to know what's the story. Why did you design it that way? Yeah, do I need to ignore it as an entire designer or tell me? Yeah, I do want to continue with vision, if the vision is there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I must say we also. If an urban vision comes in, they say, yeah, we want this to be super green and this and that, and we say, yeah, why? Why, we want we should be this, it should be this. We're willing to push and pull other people's visions, and I think interior designers should do the same thing. We also push for this next thing, or try to, you know, push the boundary in their own way. Yeah, always have to listen to all the rules. I think Then we're you know, you don't only when we make them. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you don't have to listen to all rules. Yeah, what do we say if you first you need to master the rules and then you can play with it? Huh, exactly, I think so, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm like an orange Lively on the side of the valley, please.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would be well. I don't really know. You are living there, where you're hanging out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I saw we last time we spoke as well about the world's skinniest skyscraper in New York. Yeah, wait, I Think there you mentioned a very good connection between the details. Well, you can call it in terms of, because we're talking about door handles.
Speaker 1:Yeah, indeed, I thought that was the a very interesting link between architecture and vision and concept and interior design, because in that tower, the Steinway Tower Steinway is this, like you told me this just now is that it's that it used to be. On that plot, an old Factory for pianos Did you say piano company.
Speaker 1:It's was a piano company, yeah and then they developed the tower there and then the whole building shape references the keys of the piano, and that Really powerful idea is then developed more and more to to the detail level of the door handle that even when you enter the building, you are reminded that there used to be the Steinway Company on that location. Yeah, that is like so powerful in place making and it's also super beautiful. I recommend checking it out. Yeah, I think then you know you're, you create identity and you feel like, yeah, we did it with a Bulgari shop storefront.
Speaker 1:We recycled glass in the facade and it's beautiful, but the glass that we recycled came from champagne bottles, which also makes it you're like, wow, that's exciting, that's interesting, that's something new and it gives you know, it gives like an allure to the, to the design, almost. So this story telling. I think everybody wants to do that, right? Yeah, when we, when they designed this building, they were dreaming of the ocean waves, and that's why this path is curved in this way and it references, you know, them, the, I don't know Everybody. Everybody wants to tell a story about their own building.
Speaker 2:I think yeah, I think it will give you. We have our philosophy is form follows meaning. You attach a lot of meaning. People can, they have their emotions, they will, they care of it, they know what to do with it. Yeah, I think it's. It's way more valuable if you have, yeah, stories like that. Yeah, well, back to this on the Steinway Tower. It's the skinniest skyscraper in the world, so that's already let's in your vision. Let's build the most skinnier. They did that. That's a cool one. I was looking for an apartment out there. Just check in. It's a starting at a price range from 7.7 million. I think that's a really, really tiny one and it goes up to 66 million at the moment, then you can get a custom door handle for free, that's good.
Speaker 1:Then the custom door handles are added for free, or are they?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you will get it for free. Yeah, it's amazing 66 million to live there. Okay, and I think well, and the last part because you know you are on the schedule AI. We talked a lot about it. We. It's For some people already daily routines to work with jet, gpt, me, journey, ai programs what's a? What's the role of AI in at the RV RTV?
Speaker 1:So I think, about a year ago it started getting relevant and interesting to start Looking at AI, and that was when the first I think mid-journey version three or something was out, and then a bunch of people came together at lunch with us and we're all like what is going on? This is too cool, we cannot not use it. So we started playing with it and playing with it and I think about three months ago it started getting to a point that it's so powerful that we're trying to integrate it as much as we can in our design process or I am, in my projects, because I think it's extremely exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah and yeah, but but so? So AI is just one of those tools now on your tool belt and we as designers I'm preaching Please embrace it. It's too cool, it's too exciting, and and that it's. It's the next thing, I think.
Speaker 2:How do you? What is? Ai stands for artificial intelligence. But how do you see? Is it a good? Isn't it too? Is it? What is it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we call it AI and actually that's. I wouldn't call it AI because it's not smart. It doesn't. It's not intelligent in a way and it doesn't understand what you're asking it. It's just a very dumb but very good image generator and it's all about you, the way you Interact with it. Is there the quality of the results also? So it's, it's 100% just a tool and it's not a co-designer in your design process. Currently, in its current state, as we have it now, but who knows, in a month when there is new updates? Yeah, it's. It grows so fast and it's almost un Uncatchable, I think, at this moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I love it that the input is so valuable because when you have crazy dreams and bold ideas, you can use it as a communication tool and easy your wild ideas. Over the years, like I wish I had the combination of this two interior design styles and you can. You can design it, but now you haven't yet you have to wait one minute with the great output.
Speaker 1:You have already a starting point and then you can say well, change this, go into there, you know yeah indeed, indeed, I think AI is most powerful Ways to communicate your initial Inspirations to anyone, and I think it just makes it so easy and it removes all of the the chance, miscommunications or misunderstandings from the Design process in some cases.
Speaker 2:It's okay. Do you agree that we can call?
Speaker 1:it a messy to right now? Is it messy? I think the ones tools that you can easily grab on to and easily use are really messy. Yeah, indeed, okay, you, as you dive in and you start to get no, you know, you start to control it more. So most programs that people will be using are Very much removed from the, the AI software. So there's all these inter ways that it helps you interact with it. Yeah, more scale. Then you put more time into it, months and months, you can really control every part of the, the image, and you can literally say, hey, I want to point to people here, I want to move this thing there, I want this and it'll do it for you and it works really well, but it's a, you know it's it's. That's the biggest Issue now with most of these programs is the learning curve is super steep and it's not something you can pick up tomorrow. So that's the the weakness, and but yeah, what's the main benefit right now?
Speaker 1:We use it just to and, like you said before, it's about enhancing communication and I think that's where it's most powerful. So you also this is what I think is my vision on it is that, as a designer, you cannot be led by AI and it shouldn't be leading your design process, shouldn't be the thing that You're like, oh, what should I do? I want it to be green, ish, and I want this. And then pops out something You're like okay, that's what I'm gonna do, that. I think that's not the right way to use it, because you need to be able, you're, you need to be in the leading seat. You need to think this is what I want, and then how am I gonna create an image or something that can help me communicate that to other people? And that's the way you can. Yeah, that's my preach. This is how you should use AI, I think, and that's the way you're in control, and not being led by. You know something else which you know you don't understand fully.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes they're just to play with it, they're gonna happen crazy things, did you? Are like oh, I didn't think about that, I would just do with my. I was showing my boys are at six and eight right now. He said come, let's, let's go and jet CPT 4.0. You're right now the page version.
Speaker 2:And I said oh, let's design a crazy room for you, the neck, your next new room. They said I want a jiggle team. Okay, right, with a Jeep in it. I want to sleep in a Jeep and you had a really cool image in a few. Well, it took me three times to ask it. I know what you call jingle room, but it was. I'm flying dinosaurs on the ceiling that we're developing into.
Speaker 1:She rough said. I was like what is this? Where, where?
Speaker 2:does it come from? You know, there was definitely not my input and none of my boys. But we're like, okay, I'm kind of like in this surreal theme, but then immediately, as a designer, you want to move on with this and but then I will need new In new, new input of you, of the creative, of the leader Was in charge and not Getting yeah, not saying okay, then we just do that, because then you don't have, you didn't have the right questions, you don't have the right checkpoints but there was a really it's something.
Speaker 1:There was really nice thing that one of the so I'm working with the University, bolero, colorado, boulder, and there's they're teaching a course there on the use of AI and it's really great because we, we are we. That's the teacher, jeremy Ealy, challenged the students to create something, a Physical model, use AI to upgrade that and then use another AI tool to to try to regenerate that image. So you're creating something and then how do I generate an image which looks just like that? And trying and that's what gets you To really understand the AI tool a bit more. So I really challenge yourself with it. I think that's the most fun, like what you're doing with your boys. I think that's exactly what people need to be doing now with these tools. Just see what. What are the boundaries, what can it do, what can't it do? Yeah, the students like Make a store, a four-star Atari tall building, and then they just can't because AI doesn't understand these tools, don't understand what a four-story tall building is.
Speaker 2:Yet Not yet.
Speaker 1:Very funny, right? So these things are, you know, to feel, the limits of the products. I think is very important.
Speaker 2:So what's? What? Is it a big time saver for you in the office.
Speaker 1:AI currently helps us do certain tasks really fast. Task which require a lot of visualization, like material tests. Do we want vertical planks, horizontal diagonal, this? That do we want? The window frames pink or orange or green. You can just knock it out in 10 minutes and usually that's a task that would take a week or something for a person.
Speaker 2:So a week and 15, 10 minutes. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Exactly. You can really reduce some of this iterative design tasks, but at some point you're going to have to make it real, because that's part of architecture also. You're not designing to make a PowerPoint, you're designing to make a building, and that's important that you have to make it real. After that, you have to call people who sell wood and find ways to treat it, and then find a way that it'll be treated that fits our climate that we're working in at the moment. So you're refining and refining and then that AI image doesn't have any of that incorporated into it. So it's just it helps right at the beginning a lot, and then the rest is still there to be done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Beth, you have the extra time. You could say extra time.
Speaker 1:I think it's not really that your extra time Like okay, now we have six days left and a few hours.
Speaker 1:That's not the case obviously Now, Beth, let's us do the real architecture work more now, so the moment, so we don't have to get people like I guess, when you see old pictures of architecture offices, you see 600 people in a big room, you know, drawing stuff on tables, and now that's maybe one person can do that whole thing. And as we all learn to embrace AI, we can do more things that what that really is what architecture is about. Go to the site, you know, sit there for half a day and really experience it. Or talk to the client. You know two extra meetings we could throw in and that's no problem. Or we can spend a lot more time meeting with the residents, or you know there's you can do more things which will make your design better. And that's why we can embrace AI and that's why I think we should embrace AI.
Speaker 2:Cool, okay. Last question, because I'm very curious on your vision, your opinion about it. It's as well in your, in your, in the head of NPRDV. It ends with remarkable architecture for changing worlds. Where are we heading? With architecture, with design, with urbanism? What? Where are we heading? Where are we heading? It's changing fast.
Speaker 1:We know that Another big question. Yeah, yeah, what's?
Speaker 2:going on what's?
Speaker 1:going on with. I think I see a lot. So this AI is a really big hype now and a lot of people are falling in love with it and embracing it and grabbing onto it. And I think it's going to, in the future, change, change the design workflow way more in a way that we're not going to be busy doing these repetitive tasks changing all the walls and Revit, moving all these things two meters over. That's all going to be gone. It's going to be way more of an interface where we're typing, asking questions or probably talking into something and saying, hey, can you, can we adjust all the apartments to be a little bit bigger, but don't forget about the balcony sizes. And then five minutes later you have something and then you're like oh, maybe we can rotate it. How come? What does it look like from here? There? I think the interaction will be way more natural and we can.
Speaker 2:there's no more learning curve in all of these Natural sounds to me like more human.
Speaker 1:More human, exactly. So there's, we can interface way more naturally and way more human with the computer, whereas now we're all sitting hours behind this computer and the mouse and the keyboard. But those things, I think, will disappear and it's going to be you and your, I guess what, this Apple screen thing, which I don't not looking forward to it, but it looks very interesting. But then something there will be, will be the future, yeah.
Speaker 2:So actually we're working a little. We're going to work a lot with technology, but it will be less. You're not behind the computer that much, exactly, exactly. So I think, for a lot of creatives, wonderful, because you want to build relationships, you want to go more in depth on things and you don't want to be busy with practical well sometimes stupid activities that you are like.
Speaker 1:I just want the algorithm. I just want to show them what I mean, you know, with this communication.
Speaker 2:You just want to show quickly what your idea. So if you can do it in 15 minutes, it's amazing. You can move on and focus on what you really love.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. I think that's the future, and maybe it's already the present in a way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, actually it's not. It's not about now, it's always about the future. What are we doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's true, we are still sitting behind computers now. We're not in some virtual space together yet, but then maybe you're right. So that's the future is this human, interactive, human technology becoming more human. I think that's very nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, looking forward to it. I think it goes in that direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Don't fall in love. Huh, Don't fall in love. No, no, no yeah.
Speaker 2:With your virtual assistants on the GenCG video or whatever. Yeah, looking great, kind of cool characters. I'm waiting for a visualization of your own employees. It's going crazy. Right Now it's just in the kind of emoticon or some virtual, it's kind of sketch. Yeah, you probably know what I'm talking about. We have Alex as a kind of test marketer in our at the moment, but then I'm like okay, how, how is? Yeah, how will develop our relationship on that level? It's, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:And it's crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. Well, gus, thanks a lot for your openness and the great insights. Yeah, I love it, you. I do hope a lot of listeners and creators are like, okay, it's okay to be weird, I don't have to be scared to be weird. Except, actually it's the opposite. Try to be weird, try to get out the most and see what's going on, what's happening, otherwise you end up yeah, you said it, you ended like a stock image. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:That's kind of frustrating, right?
Speaker 2:If you're a stock image and they can sell your building for $3, this image, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks, mark, for inviting me and thanks for the good questions and kind of guiding my rambling thoughts in a way that I hope people can understand and hopefully, and you know, helps you guys understand what we're doing and what I'm thinking and, which is also crazy, that people want to hear what I think is very, very funny.
Speaker 2:Well, if you're going, if you're going, try to change. Try to change remarkable architecture for changing world and you have adventurous and happy in that's the intention you want to create. Everybody wants that right now. Right, we all. Everybody wants to be happy. So if you can change the world into a happy world, that's, it's amazing, and we have the power to design our world and that's the power of the creative. So take the responsibility.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where's the?
Speaker 2:power has the responsibility, in my opinion, so do good. Thanks a lot. Even the people that were joining us live here. Thanks a lot. I hope to see you next time. Yes, next week we have another live with Giovanna Castelloni. That's the daughter of Castelloni. She's Sir Castelloni. Akile passed away a few years ago, but it will be an exciting about product design, interior design.
Speaker 1:Thanks, for being here.
Speaker 2:If you want more information about the Cast-Edbach, you can contact him on LinkedIn as well. We will put a link on our blog on beyondterdesignclub or Institute of Interior, impactcom, slash, mbrdv. The links will be there of the projects we spoke about and extra information. So, cast, thanks again Cool. Thank you, keep up the good work and I hope to visit more of your portfolio projects in time, because it makes me very curious what you're doing, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool, thanks so much, thank you.