Beyond Interior Design Podcast: Transform Your Spaces and Business
Welcome to the Beyond Interior Design Podcast, where we delve into more than just creating beautiful spaces – we transform the way you live and work within them. Join Marc and industry-leading guests as they explore groundbreaking shifts in interior design, sharing actionable insights and inspiring stories that will revolutionize your design approach.
Are you ready to elevate your design journey and grow your business? Tune in to discover innovative strategies, sustainable practices, and the latest in design technology that will set you apart. This podcast will make it impossible for you to design the way you did before.
Discover the world Beyond Interior Design – because the future of design starts here.
Beyond Interior Design Podcast: Transform Your Spaces and Business
EP 036 - Turning Financial Fears into Success: Strategies for Designers - with Gail Doby
Are financial concerns as a designer thwarting your path to true success? Join us as business transformation expert Gail Doby, co-founder of the Pearl Collective, transforms the daunting game of numbers into an empowering asset.
In this episode, Gail unravels the secrets to overcoming mental barriers such as imposter syndrome, illustrating how a shift in mindset can transition financial fear into fluency. Discover the transformative power of "yet" and how recognizing your worth can dramatically alter not just your pricing strategy, but the trajectory of your business growth.
This discussion is a treasure trove for designers eager to elevate their projects from modest beginnings to lucrative enterprises. We delve into the vital shift from hourly rates to value-based pricing, exploring how diverse pricing strategies can fortify your bottom line. It's about establishing processes that render your creativity profitable as your business burgeons. If you've ever caught yourself undercharging, the insights shared on accurately valuing your services will be invaluable.
What does success mean to you? In our frank dialogue, Gail and I explore the significance of tailoring your business model to your personal success markers. Whether you're nurturing a flexible lifestyle business or guiding a vast enterprise, the crux lies in weaving your values, objectives, and personal dreams into your strategic plan. Moreover, we'll venture into the journey of scaling your business, recruiting elite talent, and attaining financial freedom. Armed with actionable advice and inspiration, you'll be poised to enhance your client service model, ensuring your business's growth aligns with your identity and core values.
This is about you building yourself the most. This is about you being better at what you're doing. It's about you being more creative. It's about you having better processes. It's about you having better client skills. It's about you growing all the time. So just remember that if you are a learner and if you're willing to continue to grow, your business will grow with you. It grows with your skills, ability and dedication to growing yourself.
Marc Müskens:Yes, welcome to the Beyond Interior Design podcast. My name is Marc Müskens, interior designer and business coach, and in each episode we bring you an inspiring person and message to unlock your unique potential, Allowing you to thrive not only in design but also in life. And today we have the privilege of talking to someone who has been walking the path for already 47 years. She's a best-selling author, a specialist in business transformation, as the co-founder of Pearl Collective, an interior design business consultancy, and she has helped designers and architects and other creatives increase their profitability by up to 512%.
Gail Doby:Yes, she loves numbers.
Marc Müskens:And, after nearly 20 years of experience running her own design firm in Denver, Colorado, plus her expertise in finance and banking, she is the to-go person to talk about the M word money. There's a saying money can't buy you happiness. But listen, I'm pretty sure you all agree on that Life is great when you can do what you love and get paid well for it, earning what you truly deserve. So can't wait to learn more, let's start. I'm honored to welcome her.
Gail Doby:Gail Doby, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
Marc Müskens:Yes, finally, after all these months, I really yeah, yeah, but you create scarcity. That's good. Huh, now I really want to have you the podcast. Good, strategy.
Gail Doby:Well, I'm happy to be here and I'm sorry it was so hard to schedule.
Marc Müskens:We are pretty busy around here yeah, so I I really appreciate that you are spending time with our members in our beyond the design community. It has grown this week up to 222 000 entire design professionals amazing. Yeah, so I really love that and uh, well then, they cannot join all in the life, but they know there will be, uh, the recording as you are listening properly right now on Spotify, apple Play, whatever. So let's get started with this one. My first question A lot of creatives don't like numbers. Why is that?
Gail Doby:You know, I don't know if it's because they just didn't focus on that when they were in school.
Gail Doby:I'm not really sure what the real reason for each person is, but I think a lot of people that get into the business do it because they love design. They love the creative part. They love everything from the form, the function, the color, all of the different things that they get to do with design, the color, all of the different things that they get to do with design. And I don't think very many people really think about the fact that if you are getting into the business of design which is it is a business that about 90% of your job is around numbers. And what I find is, by the time that people come to us and start working with us, they know very little about finances. They don't know how to read a P&L on a balance sheet and they have no clue what the numbers mean to them. But they know, they love what they do. So everyone has a different reason why they don't like the numbers, but the reality is everyone can learn it, and I want to share a story if you don't mind.
Marc Müskens:Is that okay, yeah, yeah, it's good to. Maybe we can relate to that.
Gail Doby:Yeah Well, this is a great story. This is one of my clients and she had been in our program for a while and we had gone through the initial training, our VIP program, and in that we train people on how to read their financial statements. And I remember her saying to me one day with a little swipe over the head I just don't get numbers, they go right over my head. Does this sound familiar? And so I looked at her and I said I tell you what, give me an hour and let me see if you still think the same thing at the end of an hour. So I went back through, I walked her through the whole process and I explained the basics of an hour.
Gail Doby:So I went back through, I walked her through the whole process and I explained the basics of the numbers, and then she started crying and I said why are you crying? And she said I finally get it. What had happened was she had the light bulb moment and she had had this self belief for so long that she could not understand the numbers, that she had actually set up a block for herself to believe that she couldn't learn them. And it wasn't true. And every single person I can't tell you how many times I've seen people cry. We don't like to make them cry, but actually it's a good sign because that's usually a breakthrough, and so we've seen this happen many times, and it's really so incredible to see when they finally get it and they're excited and from then on they know their numbers.
Marc Müskens:Yeah, amazing to hear I read in your book you always. We are using that as well in our programs. It just plays. There is one little word that you have to put on the last word of one of a sentence if you have a limited belief, right? Yes, you know where I'm talking. I see your answer. Yeah, what is that word?
Gail Doby:Yet, Yet exactly, I don't know it yet yeah, I don't like numbers.
Marc Müskens:Right now, you probably write really with a thick mark on your paper and you can later change it to I love numbers. I wasn't that well, let's call it a face. It took me a little bit longer, but somebody told me hey, you don't like numbers, you need to love numbers. I said, okay, I need to love numbers, I need to love numbers, but it's not. Well, you need to love numbers. I said, okay, I'm, I need to love numbers, I need to love numbers, but it's not it. Well, you need clarity about your numbers. That's when you are going to love it and that's. I think that's the story. Uh, you told me just, you told us, right now, if you, if you have clarity about your numbers, it's going to be fair, right, yeah?
Gail Doby:Well, I think one of the funny things that another client of mine and this is another funny story about her and she came oh, I think she's been with us in the program since 2017. And she did not know her numbers at all. And the next, oh, probably in a year or so I saw her at High Point Market. And High Point Market, for those of you that don't know, is in High Point, north Carolina, and it's one of the largest markets in the world for furniture. So I happened to run into her and I asked her.
Gail Doby:I said, well, how are things going? She said, well, my gross margin is this, my net profit is this, and rattling off these numbers. And I just started laughing because I thought, oh, my God, this is so funny that she has finally gotten to that point. But she now knows her numbers and understands, and the best part is she's now running a multimillion dollar business and she has multiple businesses. So what has happened for her is she has had a confidence level that she can make money in this business. In fact, she's doing very well.
Marc Müskens:Great. So when you ask her how are you? She's talking about numbers, Right, and not about feeling and not about her next new designs.
Gail Doby:Right, yeah, exactly, it's so funny yeah.
Marc Müskens:Well, another eye opener. Another eye-opener if you think about the time you're spending in a week or during the week on actually designing. I think for most people it's quite shocking. It is not a lot. We call ourselves designers, but if you look at how much time you spend on running your business site, out of all the hours, what could it be? Sometimes Well, percent, maybe. How many? Sorry, 10%, 10%, yeah, probably yeah, if we really look to that. So learning to run your business is really important, right?
Gail Doby:Because that's the other 90%, yeah Right.
Marc Müskens:Well, there are a lot of challenges we are facing as designers, Like I'm stuck and I don't know how to get unstuck. I want to take my business to the next level, but I don't know how. I'm not earning enough. I really do hope we get some really good insights today with your expertise and your knowledge how to solve this kind of mindset stuff, because there has to be an easier way, I guess. So you're already saying money mindset it is a limited belief. That's the starting point.
Gail Doby:Yes, well, and there are so many limited beliefs that people have, I think one of the worst ones, and all of us have it at some point or another, and some people have it consistently, and it's the imposter syndrome. So, those of you that are on the call that I can see your faces, you can nod your head, if that has ever affected you at all, or a smile is fine too.
Gail Doby:But I think imposter syndrome is one of the biggest ones that I see people struggle with, and they believe that they're not good enough or that somebody is going to find out that they're not really a great designer. And the reality is you're really great at what you do, and if someone is paying you for that, then you are good at it. What you do, and if someone is paying you for that, then you are good at it. So that is the real sign that there is a value of what you're doing. And we have to remember that we are in this business not just to make people happy, but we're also in it to create a business for ourselves that pays for a lifestyle and it pays for our future, it pays for our retirement, it pays for our kids to go to college, it pays for a vacation, and so it really behooves us to learn how to run a business well so that we actually can afford to do all of those things and not have the stress around whether we can afford to do things or not. And I think the other two that I think are the worst are fear of failure. We are afraid that we might fail at the business and therefore we're afraid to make decisions that are necessary to take us to the next level. And also the third one is the fear of success, and the fear of success is really around. Oh my gosh, if I keep doing what I'm doing and I keep growing, I can't really do it all and I think I will fail because I actually have too much business, and I know that sounds strange, but those are the three that are the biggest problems that I see clients face over time and if they can overcome this, which they do after the course of time that they work with us, they become confident, and they become confident as leaders and also in their financial growth of their business and also in their ability to think strategically and be able to make the right decisions to move their business to the next level, because you mentioned this at the beginning that people feel either stuck and they can't get to the next level, they don't know how to get there, and it's really about having a path, and I think that was one of the things I tried to cover in my book, which is business breakthrough, and the subtitle is your creative value blueprint to get paid what you're worth. Because we do deserve to make money doing what we're creative in our abilities and I do remember this years ago I was an intern for an architect and I remember that I had the finance degree, so thank goodness for that degree, so thank goodness for that.
Gail Doby:And I looked at the way he was running his business and I said you know, you really need to raise your markups because you're only marking up 10%. He said, but I can't charge more. And I said, why not? And he said, well, this is so easy for me and so I don't feel like I can charge for it. So that's another limiting belief that some people have is that it's so easy that they shouldn't have, they shouldn't charge for it. And that's silly, because it's when you are that good you should charge for it, because not other, a lot of other people do not have that skill.
Marc Müskens:No, and they compare most of the time. They compare each other with other designers, right? Or I'm just starting out, so I cannot charge, charge more, or I will even do it for free. Sometimes you hear that kind of sentence I will even do it for free.
Gail Doby:It's such a great project I'm like, no, don't do it guaranteed, every time you do that there are problems that come up, that you will eat so many thousands of dollars in mistakes that you will regret that you did not charge enough. So I promise you you will never regret charging enough in your business. You will never regret that Never charge enough.
Gail Doby:You never charge enough and, in fact, every time every year you should be raising your rates, and if you're not raising your rates every year and if you're not nervous about changing your rates, then you're not pushing it far enough. So it's important for you to continue to raise your rates, even if it's $25 an hour or whatever your currency is. You want to be sure that you are continuing to raise your rates because each year, you have more experience, the cost of living is higher, the cost of operating your business is higher and you need to make more money in order to keep more money at the end of the year.
Gail Doby:So, the other thing that I would say and just insert here really quickly, is that we have vanity numbers and sanity numbers, and you've probably heard this Mark that the sanity number is your net profit, that's what you keep, and the vanity number is the revenue or how much you charge to your clients. So we really focus in our business on the net profit, because that's what matters and it's really important as you continue to grow your business that you're continuing to build both of those numbers, but especially net profit.
Marc Müskens:Well, I hear and I know you are working with million-dollar companies. That's your expertise. You're leading by example, so that's why I love to have you in this podcast. You're definitely not afraid of numbers, no, no, and you love to talk about money. Most of the time, people not even love to talk about money.
Gail Doby:And that's so strange.
Marc Müskens:Well, if you talk about hourly rates you just mentioned it what's the best to do? Because hourly rates doesn't tell me. Well, it starts to give you an idea of the value, but I always love packages or fixed pricings for your services. What's your opinion on that one?
Gail Doby:Because, yeah, I just wrote an article about that and posted that last week, and what I have found over the years is that packages are. I think it's fine if you're starting out and trying to figure out how to do your business, but the problem is that, as you're growing your business, what I find for most people is we go very deep and we analyze line by line everyone's P&L and financial statements, their balance sheets, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that people that charge fixed rates are not making enough money. They're usually charging about 50% less than what they should charge. So the fixed fees sound great for a while and they're great when you're inexperienced, but the thing is and the important thing is, that you really do track your time to see how much would it have taken had I priced that according to how much time it took me, and I promise you you will find out that you have undercharged by somewhere 25 to 50% from what you should have charged.
Marc Müskens:Well, I think this was my experience for sure in the beginning, when I started with packages, but it felt really comfortable. But then I started designing, and that's what we teach our members too Start designing these kind of processes, because you need to have a process in place, otherwise you're lost right? If you just charge a fixed fee and you have no clue what you're doing for the rest of the process, then of course you're charging way too less. But at the other hand, for me it felt like a quite comfortable way to grow because you just can raise your price and deliver the same, raise supplies, deliver the same, to see how that, how that goes, to make money comfortable to your business, to you, to yourself. So, uh, well, that's, I think they, they. So it's really important to mention that they, they. That really comes together right, your pricing and your process. Are those actually one, or how do we need to see that?
Gail Doby:Well, they're both, because you have to have both. If you don't have processes in place and you don't have a consistency in the way you deliver your services, then of course it is going to be hard for you to make money. So to me, this is just fine when you're in the smaller stage, but when you get to the million plus in the business, it changes drastically because you have less control over your team. At this point, you have a team and you have employees working for you and, depending on their expertise and their level of experience, they may or may not be efficient in what they do. So you have to have the documented processes, especially as you grow your business. And then, after a while, you find that the complexity of your projects are so big that it's very hard to have a fixed fee that covers all of the things that are part of that, of the things that are part of that.
Marc Müskens:So, um, I I would just say that, as you, grow, you may need to transition into a different pricing model. Great, okay, that's good because we are most of our listeners. I know there are single designers or duo designers, or maybe they have a small team with one or two people extra max four. So I think that's so. This, this will, the packages will, uh, give them a new face in their business.
Gail Doby:But after that, when we're growing in bigger numbers, they really need to have another process because there are way more risks and factors involved so many eventualities of things that you cannot control, and when you're working on, say, a million dollar project, the million dollar project, you have so many things that are coming at you that are not predictable and controllable, and so in that case, if your client is asking you to do different things, there are, of course, different approaches around this.
Gail Doby:You can do a percentage of the whole project cost, and that gives you a way to adjust your fees according to the growth of the project. Or you can do a combination of a fixed fee plus an hourly or a percentage. They're just again, you can combine different methods to price your services. So I think it's really important to understand that as you grow your business and get into those complex projects, that a fixed fee is going to be a problem. It will be a problem later. So just be aware that when you get into the larger projects, you need to be tracking your time well, and if you're not tracking your time to see how long it takes you to do a project, then you cannot accurately predict what that fixed fee will be.
Marc Müskens:Yeah, well, great, great Love to hear that and great because it's yeah well, it's very clear when you explain it. So, yeah, thank you for that, is it? Well, we're trying to break this kind of. We talk about processes, about repetitive tasks in your business. What's the most important? Now? You said registering time. You need to know what you are doing, for how long, for how much time. What are other tasks really important to measure in your business when you want to grow, when you want to go to the next level? You're asking such a big question. There is. It is. Imagine this single designer or designers. It's a small office and they are just doing what they're doing. They're doing good, they have a continuous stream of income and clients and they do well, they want to grow, but then they have this kind of well, you call it the brick wall syndrome, something like that, right, or the glass ceiling, or yeah.
Gail Doby:They hit the wall and they are not sure where to go from there. And this is so hard because the numbers change and become more critical for you to understand the ins and outs of those as you get bigger. So I'm going to give you a word or a phrase and I'll explain it and then certainly ask me questions about it. But as you grow your business and probably not in the earlier stages of one to four people, but in the later stages you'll be measuring what are called key performance indicators. The later stages, you'll be measuring what are called key performance indicators, and these key performance indicators will be things that you will measure on a consistent basis. And I'll just give you a few things that a smaller company should be measuring right now. You should be thinking about and tracking how many phone calls you're getting, or how many outreaches you're getting from potential prospects for your business. You should always know that number. How many do you get per month? How many of those people are qualified for you to do business with them, because not all the people that reach out will be able to pay you or understand the value of what you bring and then, from there, how many of those people will sign a contract with you and you should always have a contract. So if you know those numbers, you can figure out what is your close rate.
Gail Doby:Your close rate is how many people that you're able to get into a signed contract that are qualified, that call your business.
Gail Doby:So it would be really good for you to track how many of those people you close.
Gail Doby:If you are getting referrals, you might close 50 to 80% of the people that call you, but if those people are calling just because they saw you on Instagram or they saw you in, maybe on your website, and they're just reaching out and they're calling many designers, then you cannot be sure that that person is the right person for you. In fact, many of those people are not, and so if that's the case, you have to know how many are qualified to call you and how many of those people can you actually get to sign. And then, if you're tracking these numbers over time say over the course of a year you know in one month you get five calls, the next month you get to the next you get three, then you get four, and but you only are able to close one per month. Is that enough for your business? But if you don't track that number, how do you know how many leads you need to have in order for you to have enough business?
Marc Müskens:Yeah, so you need to know your numbers. You need to have again, it's a process. You need to have a process for that so you know what you're doing. Yeah, and going back to the taking on new clients and prospects and see if they are a good fit. I know we have some examples that people are literally saving eight hours by having a good filter in place, a good system for the new prospects. That's already a big time saver. Imagine if you have 20 clients a year, 20 prospects, and you save on every time eight hours because you only have to spend time with the people that are a good fit. You're already having a better lifestyle. It's a, I think, a quick calculation almost three weeks of the year, a full three years, almost one month work week if you work from monday to friday, that you're saving just on the qualification process. Yeah, yeah well.
Gail Doby:it's important. If you know these numbers and you start paying attention to what works and what doesn't work for you and you have an ideal client profile and you also understand what the red flags are we call these red flags in the US that these people are not qualified to do business with us or they're not interested in paying us what we're worth Then we need to end that call quickly and move on, because we have other things to do. We need to work on the projects that are creating a lifestyle for us and a business for us.
Marc Müskens:Yeah. So that brings me to the word success, because it's always a kind of for me it's a kind of vague word and it's for me it has every almost every year or a few years it has another definition. At first it's Dermot Byrne making money, and sometimes about freedom and time. Yeah, we all talk. A lot of designers talk about that. They want clients with big budgets. It is awesome clients, healthy profits, more free time. But is it important to define success first in order to make a business plan?
Gail Doby:Well, I think so, because for each person, success is different. For me, success is achievement, and achievement isn't necessarily money. So if money is not your driving force, I promise you that money will not be as attractive to you, and so it's kind of a funny thing If you don't have an interest in it, it won't necessarily come your way. So whatever you focus on, you get. And if your idea of success is to serve your clients and also to make money at it, you're probably going to do that, because your behavior will align with whatever your definition of success is.
Gail Doby:So I think it's really important for you to take the time to think about what's important to you.
Gail Doby:What is it that you really want to have in your life, really want to have in your life? And if you want to have a lifestyle business where you can raise your kids and you have the freedom to go to their games and you have the freedom to travel and the freedom to go and have lunch with friends, then you're probably more of a lifestyle business and not a full business, because you want to have the ability to enjoy what you love and what your passion is, but you may not have the desire to build a real business per se, and that's totally fine. There is nothing wrong with that. But you have to know that there will be trade-offs, that you will not earn as much as someone who is more focused on building a real business and I don't mean that in a negative way and when I say real business, I'm talking about having a team and having financial controls and having budgets and understanding how to operate that business to continue to grow it.
Marc Müskens:So two different. It might feel like sacrificing for a lifestyle entrepreneur. Exactly, exactly.
Gail Doby:So that is totally fine. Each of those is successful for each person depending on what it is they prefer, and I don't want anyone to feel like I'm forcing you into looking at running a business unless you really want to do that. And if you do, you need to know how to run that business, because that's the key in the end is understanding that there are ways that you run a business well, and if you can just learn those things, it will be much easier for you yeah I think you give me a great insight.
Marc Müskens:Uh, gail, thanks for that, because now you get the, you made it really. Yeah, you put it in a split like a business creating a business or a lifestyle business. And I know now for sure that we are with the Institute and beyond the terror design. Everything we're teaching we're definitely focused on lifestyle creating a lifestyle business there you go, yeah. A lifestyle business there you go, yeah. So that's good to know, because that's creating sometimes the frustrations and sometimes the eagerness to have more smart tools to do it with, to achieve more with less. That's always the idea. I really love that and I'm not. I never. When I started my own interior design firm firm, I never had an ambition to grow with a big team. I never had it. I was always like why, why is that not? Why I'm afraid of this success or I don't like it. And every time it's like, no, I don't like it, I want, I'm an, I'm a lifestyle designer, lifestyle entrepreneur yeah, there is nothing wrong with that.
Gail Doby:I think that is perfect if that is what you want.
Marc Müskens:Yeah, and I can talk about it. That I can talk about really well because that's my passion. So that really determines why you are really well. You told me you were an achiever. Your way, that's for sure, and so that's why you are coaching multi-million dollar businesses, because you had sky can be the limit. You, that's it.
Gail Doby:That's what you're focusing on, yeah I would like to say, though, that, even though you're teaching people how to run a lifestyle business and that's your preference if you know how to do it like a bigger company yeah, and you buy some of those same methods to your own company, do you think that your business will make more money?
Marc Müskens:definitely those are the role models. Yeah, but every time there's something like I don't want to be fully in this business, business, and then you get back to this lifestyle business. But we're definitely copying things systems, ideas, mindsets, you know, reading books, attending trainings to yeah, to steal the good stuff from this.
Gail Doby:Uh, workaholics yeah, well, you know what's really interesting as you go through this period and I liken, liken this to well, I probably won't use that metaphor because it's some people might not like snakes, but but you know the reality is when you're in a lifestyle business, you're going to be under four people probably, and if you are in a full fledged I'm really going for it kind of business, there is a middle ground. When you hit that four to about 10 people, that is very, very, very challenging and you're working very hard in that period of time. But you're working hard to set up the systems, hire the team, train the team and then build a leadership team. And once you build a leadership team right around eight people or so, that is when your lifestyle business kind of comes back, because you're teaching other people to expand the capacity of what you're capable of doing. So you teach people your systems and methods and you have other people that can do that on your behalf and then you can go off and take vacation, have other people that can do that on your behalf and then you can go off and take vacation.
Gail Doby:In my case, I take about nine or 10 weeks off a year and I'm at a point in my life where I'll take six weeks off at the end of the year every year and I'll also take vacation during the year, and it's because I have a leadership team and I have people on my team that can execute the work if I'm not in town or if I'm not available, and so that's that middle ground of the four to about 10 people. That's the most painful. But once you get past that, then you get back to lifestyle business. So you get lifestyle on either side of that growth path. So that's something to think about too. Yeah, a lot more money there.
Marc Müskens:Yes, yes, that's almost guaranteed right when you have all these eight players in your team and people can do the same stuff, or even better, because that's what happens right If you work with eight players. That was another big insight for the last few years, when you were smaller, you would tend to work with people that, hey, that you have to invest in less for photographers, marketing, you all. You don't have this big budget, but when you start working with eight players and you're really investing in eight players, your business is getting better. It's it. That was another big insight for me.
Gail Doby:If you want to, if you think small, you stay small yeah, let me tell you what can happen on the upper end, just so that we give a full contrast for everyone.
Marc Müskens:Yes, please.
Gail Doby:Yes, and so over time and we have a lot of our people stay with us five to 10 years in the program, so they stay with us as they grow through these different phases and I think we are now on the fifth person that has hit that million dollars net profit. This is after they have paid themselves a salary. So these are people who have learned how to run their business and they have a full team. Some of these are maybe five people on the team and up to 25 on the team. So, hitting a million dollars net profit, you only have to do that for a few years and you have enough money to enjoy whatever lifestyle you want to have. So that may not be a motivator for you, but it is a possibility.
Marc Müskens:Yeah, yeah, let's talk about some steps as a last point. No wait, let's see what we let's get over my blueprint. We touched so many points. So here I created the kind of blueprint with all the questions I wanted to know from you, gail. But now I'm like oh, this is interesting, this is interesting, but I know I have to be careful with your time. Let's see what kind of. Oh, my God, I have so many questions for you.
Gail Doby:Well, you have a really short.
Marc Müskens:you have a kind of quick steps to get over what you need to take care of when you do have a business, and we talk about already, like you need to take care about your finances, and that comes with marketing and the rest. We talk about the teams. But then there is this kind of vision and most of the time for a lot of creatives they do have this vision and they start a business. Can you get them some kind of keys for that so they know they can?
Gail Doby:well a vision is well. For example, we. One of the first things we talk to our clients about when we start the program with them is what their vision is for 10 years. Where, where do they want to be in 10 years? And I think if you know what it is that you want to build, then you can work backwards from that vision to what it is that you want to create. So I think you need to know what it is you're trying to create and if you're in a stage of your life where you have kids at home and you really need to take care of those kids, that for that period of time you may not want to do more than have that lifestyle business, which is totally fine. But once the kids are gone, do you want to grow your business? And that is a choice you can make and you can think about that. For that 10-year vision, what is it that I really want to accomplish down the road? For that 10-year vision, what is it that I really want to accomplish down the road? Do I want to be able to contribute to our family's financial future and have financial freedom? Decide what it is you want to create and then you work backwards to create. What are the milestones and what do I need to accomplish by this year or this year or this year? To get me to here? And that's the way I think you need to start with designing your business idea and also your plan for how you're going to grow your business.
Gail Doby:And then the second thing I think is really important is to figure out what your values are, what is really important to you. And I'll give you an example. We have business values that we have for our business and we have values that we have for our personal life, and I do have a little bit of crossover. My personal values are relationships, loyalty and contribution. Those are my three, and so, for me, I run everything through the filter of do these values, am I able to use these as my filter to decide? Am I going to do this or am I not going to do this? And that includes deciding which clients I want to work with. And if it doesn't relate to that and I can't meet all three of those those are non negotiable for me then I will say no to that.
Gail Doby:And I can't meet all three of those those are non negotiable for me then I will say no to that client because I do not want to work with people I don't like. I just don't. So every time I've worked with somebody that is outside of or is is not good, it's usually because they didn't have a value fit with me and they didn't have a value fit with me and they didn't have a value on relationships, and so if that's the case, then I don't want that to continue.
Gail Doby:Working with that client and in your business, you might have different values and you might have different values about the way that you present yourself to your client. Perhaps excellence is one of those things that you're working toward, and perhaps you're looking at client service, and perhaps you're looking at joy and enjoying your business and enjoying the people that you work with, and maybe those are three of the values that you have. Make sure that, whatever your non-negotiables are, that you are always being true to those, because your business will be better and you'll be happier in your business and your life if you're following values definitely I made that mistake one time to just say I needed the money.
Marc Müskens:I was like I need to have this assignment, so I need this contract. So I start working with people that were not my well, let's say it's a cup of tea. I didn't like him that much, but I said I can, I can help them, let's do it. And I had a horrible situation. The end result, of course, because you're a designer, you want to do good, you want to make it excellent, perfect, so the end result was great. But what happened? The neighbors called me a few months later if I could work with them because they so much and well, they were good friends. They were like, oh wait, if they are good friends, maybe I have to die.
Marc Müskens:But again, I did it. Again I did it again. I said yes. Then it I'm talking about 12, 14 years ago. So I never did it again. It was a great lesson. And it was even more painful because they were not my best clients, not my best fit. They had even higher expectations because they're the story, the referral of the other clients. So it was horrible, so stressful, so painful. Long, long process, no nightmare.
Gail Doby:So I feel for you and and when we do that we are we have to go back to being honest with ourselves about why we're doing things, and if we're doing it for money, that is the wrong reason to be doing this.
Gail Doby:It is really about serving other people and getting paid for the value that you bring, but it's also about working with people that value you from the beginning.
Gail Doby:So be very careful about who you choose to work with, because it will make your life miserable or wonderful, whichever one you're, whichever choice you make, but if you can stick with your values, that will really help you. And then I think the third thing I would say is just make sure that, whatever you do, that you're thinking about the client service and how you can deliver the best client service, because that is your brand. Your brand is not just what your logo looks like or your website looks like or your Instagram. It is the level of service that you provide and the way you provide it. So make sure that you have processes documented, that you follow processes and that you deliver the best possible service. And I think that if you can pay attention to those three things, you'll have a wonderful lifestyle business and you can do exactly what you want, and I'll recommend a book that is great to read. It's called Unreasonable Hospitality.
Marc Müskens:Unreasonable Hospitality, all right.
Gail Doby:Unreasonable Hospitality, and I would highly recommend reading that book because if you want to understand the idea of real, true client service, that would be an amazing book to read or to listen to either one. And I would encourage you to do that because if you can focus on your client experience, your referrals will go way up and you will have an easier business, because if you're focused on delivering something that is beyond what that person expects, then they are going to talk about you and that buzz will relate and result in referrals that will be more of people that you want to work with.
Marc Müskens:Great that you bring this up, because when we literally measured all the design fees and the rates and what kind of products we had as services, the multiplier was there. We literally doubled by just improving the experience. We had the same products, the same processes, but just the experience, and then we doubled our fees and our income. That time was amazing and it was even more fun because I do like it. It was more fun to bring them that way, to give them that experience.
Gail Doby:Exactly right.
Marc Müskens:It can fit your personality way better if you design the process. How do you want to make them feel actually during the process?
Gail Doby:I think you get the important thing, which is how they feel, because the emotional reaction that your clients have determines their satisfaction with your job.
Marc Müskens:Yeah, yeah. In the end we want those tears and we want those ahs and like that was amazing, and that are almost looking forward to another construction. Even construction work is not fine, not good, all this dust. They don't pay for that.
Gail Doby:No, they pay for the result afterwards right, their life afterwards, yeah there's a real value yeah exactly and if you can nail that and find the best way to do that for your business. Usually you can't do that if you're a solopreneur. You need some help on the team to be able to deliver that. So, even if you had a virtual assistant that does certain aspects of your business for you, so that you are able to focus on the parts that generate the most revenue and that are your parts of your genius, that is a reason to have team members, because they can help you execute yeah, wonderful.
Marc Müskens:Yeah, systemize, automate, outsource and do what you love to do and get paid what you really deserve, yeah, but there is always a thing and that I think that's that that's almost the most harsh, uh roadblock is to get paid what you deserve, but do you? How many interior designers think they deserve more?
Gail Doby:well, that's a good question and you're right. People believe they do and they get what they deserve, and some people don't believe they should get it and they might get lucky. And because they're terribly creative, they do get a good lifestyle business and maybe a great income. And to me, this is one of the businesses that you can make as much money as you want in it, and it's not unusual for our designers to make, as I said you know, $100,000 in the US, or multiple hundreds of thousands, and we've had a few make well over a million. And I think that it is a choice about what you're willing to put into it and what you're willing to, how you're willing to grow.
Gail Doby:And what I would say, and probably a good ending point, is to remember that whatever size business you're building, this is about you building yourself the most. This is about you being better at what you're doing. It's about you being more creative. It's about you having better processes. It's about you having better client skills. It's about you being more creative. It's about you having better processes. It's about you having better client skills. It's about you growing all the time. So just remember that if you are a learner and if you're willing to continue to grow. Your business will grow with you. It grows with your skills, ability and dedication to growing yourself.
Marc Müskens:Yeah, and I think we can add to that. Don't take this road on your own right. There is a fast, there is a fast lane. Always seek out for mentors, for role models, even that designers don't like to copy paste, but on business wise, please copy paste. I always tell them please copy paste. Don't be original, don't try to invent a new wheel. Seek out for mentors.
Marc Müskens:Yeah, grow your skills. Daily work on your business instead of in yeah, so, yeah, all of it. So, um well, I would say thank you very much, gil, for your great advice. I think I can talk for you for hours. I want to know, to have all your expertise. Maybe I will. Maybe I will, because you're definitely playing on another level and you are this kind of mentor or coach, for sure, for the lifestyle designers that want to have all these shortcuts. The lifestyle designers that want to have all these shortcuts, these strategies to even improve their lifestyle, to have a wonderful life, do what they love to do most, but don't want to sacrifice a lot in order to get just a big bank account or just this achievement. Some people, yeah, but that's how you determine your own success, how you describe your own success.
Gail Doby:So thank you very much, of course, and I just wanted to mention we have a free class and I don't know if you're going to post about that. Yeah, in the description.
Marc Müskens:When you're listening to the podcast right now, you can find out in the description. We will put a link out there on our blog and to reach out to you for your masterclass and otherwise, for the people who are joining us live later on on the blog. So yeah, Great.
Gail Doby:Thank you so much.
Marc Müskens:So you have a free masterclass. On which topic?
Gail Doby:Well, the next one is on. We have a project calculator. We call it the Easy Budget Calculator calculator. We call it the Easy Budget Calculator and it helps you estimate a budget, and what I like about it is that it helps you back out. So here's the price you charge the client and you can back out all the costs and your markups and it tells you how much you actually have to spend at the cost of the product. And so it also helps you figure out your time and budget for your time, and also it figures out the cost per room so that you can create a budget per room. So it's a really great tool and it's free.
Marc Müskens:And it's absolutely recommend. It is coming up, I believe, on the 24th and I highly recommend it if you can attend yes, thanks for that because, yeah, it's really everybody's searching always for the house and this sounds like a really practical how, a very practical how. Yeah, I said it, it makes you love numbers. I do hope and understand, I hope. So thanks, gal g. Again, we keep in touch. Good luck with all your mentorships and all your businesses and enjoying life with all your experience.
Gail Doby:Yeah, and thanks to all of you for being here. I appreciate that and thank you for attending. I know this may not be your first language, so thank you for listening and hopefully let me know if there's anything I can do to help.
Marc Müskens:Yeah, thanks a lot, goodbye.
Gail Doby:Bye, see you later.
Marc Müskens:See you later.
