EP 044 - Balancing Business and Design: Insights from Leading Dutch Designer Roelfien Vos

We’ve got a special guest in this episode of The Beyond Interior Design Podcast—Roelfien Vos, one of the Netherlands’ top interior designers! 🇳🇱 With her unique blend of creativity and business savvy, Roelfien has built a design studio that’s as inspiring as her projects. But how does she manage it all while staying passionate and energized? Let’s find out! 💥

🔥 What’s inside this episode?

• How Roelfien blends work and life into one creative flow. 🖌️
• Why saying “no” is just as powerful as saying “yes.” ✔️❌
• The secret to staying inspired and loving what you do. ✨
• Her take on managing energy and staying true to your vision. 💡
• How her Dutch roots influence her timeless and purposeful designs. 🌍

Did you know: Marc was once an intern at the design studio of Roelfien Vos?

💡 Why you should listen:

Whether you’re an interior designer, a creative entrepreneur, or just someone looking for inspiration, this episode is packed with insights to help you balance your business and creativity. Roelfien shares her journey, her challenges, and the lessons she’s learned along the way.

Don’t miss this conversation with one of the Netherlands’ biggest design talents—hit play now! 🎧

📌 Connect with us:

Follow us for more interior design insights:

• Instagram: @beyondinteriordesign
• Website: www.beyondinteriordesign.club

🎧 Where to listen:

Find this episode on your favorite platforms:

• Spotify
• Apple Podcasts
• Buzzsprout

Transcript

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yes.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: yes.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Welcome to a new episode of the beyond interior design Podcast where our mission is to help you grow your interior design studio in a smart and relaxed way. And today I'm especially excited to welcome a guest who has played a key role in my own journey as an interior designer

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: back in 2,008, right before I started my own interior design studio, I had the privilege of working with her in a stunning studio located in a castle in the south of the Netherlands.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: and even then I knew her as a very hardworking and ambitious woman, with an unshakable passion for design.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Since those early days I followed her career from the background.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: admiring her incredible work she has done on an international stage.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: She's an award-winning interior designer celebrated her for her exceptional ability to combine luxury and functionality

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: with a unique personal touch

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: from exclusive residences to extraordinary yards and high-end hospitality projects. Her designs are a true reflection of passion, creativity, and precision.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: In this episode we'll dive into what makes her tick

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: the lessons he has learned, the challenges she has overcome, and the insights we, as interior designers, can take away from her remarkable career. So sit back, relax, and join us for an inspiring conversation with

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: one of the most highest reputable European designers in the luxury sector, Rufie Voss.

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Roelfien Vos: Wow! What an intro mark! Thank you very much.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Come with him.

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Roelfien Vos: Thank you. Thank you. So yeah, thank you for having me in this podcast and thank you for the amazing introduction. And

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Roelfien Vos: yeah, I remember you from 2,008, and like, see you also grow. That was really nice to see what you're doing with your podcast and your ideas. And I think it's very inspiring for interior designers, interior architects, but also people that are interested in interior design. So I think you have a yeah. You must have a great audience that I really believe that. So yeah, I'm happy to be here and talk to you. Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Well, thank you. Yeah, that those day I was very kind of jealous at you with this highly incidental projects. Well, right now, for sure, this year we did some amazing penthouses and luxury apartments. So I'm yeah. I'm I'm really happy that my career went in that direction as well with our own design firm. Yeah, on the on the other end. We have this beyond clip.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: inspiring other interior designers. So well, let's start you. Just you're just back from from right in Italy.

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Roelfien Vos: Yes, yes, we had a very short trip to San Remo, where one of our super yachts is in the harbor, which is a new project that we are checking out. It's a new build. So it's a new yacht

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Roelfien Vos: client really likes likes my interior design, and so wants to change it to my hand. So we had to check, if that is even possible. If, like, the structure will be working for our dears.

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Roelfien Vos: So yeah, we. We flew on Monday flew back on Tuesday, and we had enough time to check it out, and and as a as a separate note, and really beautiful like the weather was like 16 or 17 degrees. So that was nice for a short trip, and to have a bit of sun again in our lives.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, sounds great. Yeah, well, let's let's before we dive into what everybody wants to know. How do we get high end clients? How does it work where all this kind of entrepreneurial secrets? Where? Where was the the this specific moment that you realized? Interior design is my my calling.

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Roelfien Vos: I think that really goes way back as a kid, I was already like drawing and and sketching, and always working on my own room to? Yeah. Put things at another other place, painting, wallpapering, even sewing my own curtains, these kind of things looking at colors. And yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Then it also start that other people asked me, but it was more like a hobby. But as kid in in school I already made like in your in your cabinets, these little houses and people were living in my desk, and to have their own lives in my designed little houses.

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Roelfien Vos: But back back then, is. It was not like a job like interior design, especially not in the Netherlands. I was living in Germany at that time, but it was not an occupation. It was like, Okay, that is a career. So I was looking more at decorator, which was something like for

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Roelfien Vos: stores. And these kind of things. So I liked very much conceptual idea my parents back then were thinking like, Okay, this might not be the right path for her. So I did something else, and had like a nice education in

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Roelfien Vos: How do you call it? More like business business and languages, and also worked in that field until I was 30

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Roelfien Vos: was. I had also a really a quite nice career in that. Yeah. And then

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Roelfien Vos: something severe in my life

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Roelfien Vos: made me take a wrong, not a wrong, but another, and for me the right direction. So and then I thought, This is what I this is what my, what makes me tick. And this is what I want to do. So I switched, switched careers back. Then I was an area manager at manpower. I think it's also worldwide. Quite known temporary

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yep.

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Roelfien Vos: Work company.

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Roelfien Vos: And yeah, I just started from scratch without any payment with a millwork company. And I met interior architect there, and I was like that sponge that really wants to know everything. And in a millwork company I started also to look behind the scenes

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Roelfien Vos: as I find the technical part of our work very important, because I think detailing in the right way the techniques of of the design

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Roelfien Vos: and look at the details will make the design stand out, I think rough sketches rough 3 Ds. Giving that to your mill worker will not give the outcome that you would like. I think you have to be on top of that. And that was something that I already had from the from the beginning

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Roelfien Vos: thought to be very important to

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Roelfien Vos: to have that knowledge. So that's it. How it started.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, that that's how I know you. With this, with this precise, this precision, I know I had to my 1st job the 1st task you gave me was to draw in out of cut a wooden floor pattern, wooden floor.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: And I was really conceptual educated on the design Academy, and I was like, what is this? Do I need to do this in the full day detailing a floor? What? What is this? So

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: you know I got crazy doing that these kind of jobs in your company. So I I well, I knew now, when you look back it's all clear. But at that moment there was like, Oh, is this interior design, too? Maybe I

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: yes, something different going on there. And the full room was

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: the whole castle rooms were filled with fabrics and curtains, and there was your passion right? The.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, very much.

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Roelfien Vos: Fabrics, fabrics everywhere, the whole world.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, I think that is like what changed in my career was, that is a bit like. Of course, I find it important to pick the right materials. But growing in this field everything has a bit more balance

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Roelfien Vos: and back. Then everything that I liked. I bought.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Is, that.

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Roelfien Vos: Okay, I want to have it. I want to be surrounded about the most beautiful with the most beautiful fabrics, wallpapers, and materials.

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Roelfien Vos: Yep.

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Roelfien Vos: now I do more, Cherry picking. Look at my market, and that's also a way to to grow. And and on another note we're in Amsterdam, located in Amsterdam since 9 years now, so I don't have actually the space to. I don't have the luxury to have a half a castle

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Roelfien Vos: that. I can fill that everything I like. And yeah, also.

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Roelfien Vos: it grew more to a real business. We're now with 10 people. So 8 people that has work on a contract to that have a flexible contract. So I have a bit of if it's a bit more busy I can hire them, and otherwise they're not working here. So that's that's.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Wow! That's what.

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Roelfien Vos: Changed changed over over the years, but but still I have a great passion for materials. A few weeks ago I traveled to India where I was really fulfilled with Yeah, like, Oh, this is like heaven.

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Roelfien Vos: what they can make with materials to the nitty, gritty detail like, especially, for instance, in marble inlays or inlays with mother of pearl, that is.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: It's real real craftsmanship over there.

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Roelfien Vos: 3 years.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Good question.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, real craftsmanship. And I had the privilege to be in a hotel room. And then I went in. It was really amazing, with a great view if there was, has been so much for how do you call a pollution? So it was a great window, and if you create view, but the pollution was so much that I couldn't see but.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Whoa, yeah. Then I went into my bathroom. I was like, Wow.

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Roelfien Vos: How they install the marble. It's like seamless

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Roelfien Vos: it. They have seams, and they have normally you need a grout, and I always tell the people that install for us. We make those drawings like, Okay, this is the way you need to install you start there. This is the sizes of the Grout, but this was even without a grout, so they they cut the pieces.

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Roelfien Vos: and then they put them back in the same.

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Roelfien Vos: As they came out of the.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Same order here.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, so I can look looking at it. And there was beautiful model.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Mother Nature. Mother nature at work. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, this is best.

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Roelfien Vos: Like like these, these corners, you you also as a professional, you know. If you have these outside corners, they can be like

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Roelfien Vos: even dangerous if if they're they stick out, but they make it in a way, they do it by hand. They send it so that is a bit of a round corner. I was like, Wow, this is, this is so beautiful. So I was there for a whole week. And yeah, filled with ideas and inspiration, I think, for each and every interior designer interior architect. I can just

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Roelfien Vos: yeah, say, like, go there because it will.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Go to India.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, it will add to your to your library.

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Roelfien Vos: your library in your head, I mean, of course.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah. Yeah. Well, great. Well, let's let's continue with what every bar, every interior designer wants to know. How do you market yourself to high end clients. Because if you're just starting out, how? How did you?

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: How? Yeah?

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Oh, when you're journey? Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Was it choice to just

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: focus right away on Heinz clients, or just came out, or how.

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Roelfien Vos: I think my taste and the way I approach also is a certain will will appeal to a certain market, which is a high end market. So my style is not mainstream.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Nope.

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Roelfien Vos: Here in the Netherlands especially, we have those brown gray tones very muted, not very detailed. And there's also a lot of competition in that field

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Roelfien Vos: or in that segment. I have a more like, as you already said, a very detailed taste. I look at each and every inch of the design, and want to

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Roelfien Vos: steer it and have the the whole.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah. Manage the whole project over each and every inch, and I think that appeals to a certain public, a certain

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Roelfien Vos: yeah group of people that liked it. And

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Roelfien Vos: yeah, my taste is also yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: I think a bit international. So I think we appeal to well traveled clients.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yep.

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Roelfien Vos: That I also see we have a really kind of grow in the international market now.

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Roelfien Vos: especially now in yacht design. So yeah. And

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Roelfien Vos: on top of that, I think.

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Roelfien Vos: From my my former

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Roelfien Vos: career, knowing how to run a business like

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Roelfien Vos: I was an area manager responsible for sales, but also for costs.

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Roelfien Vos: and to know how that works.

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Roelfien Vos: Translating that into my design. You also manage a project, and I know what you have to do, and I think

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Roelfien Vos: for me it's always quite simple, and it says like, Do preach what you pray.

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Roelfien Vos: Oh.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: That's what you preach.

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Roelfien Vos: Practice.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Oh, yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: So do what you say and say what you do. That's how we translate it in Dutch. That's what I always say.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, I'll talk to walk. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah. And I, I think that is so simple. But I think, if if you

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Roelfien Vos: follow that rule like, if a client ask you on Tuesday. Okay, can you help me? And you don't have an answer. Then we say, like, Okay, we don't know today. But we will get back to you tomorrow, if it takes another day. We say, Okay, we promise to get back to you today. But we still have no answer. So just following up means that your client is not going to doubt. Oh, does she already have an answer, or so that is something I already did back in my

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Roelfien Vos: past career. And over the 25 years that I'm an interior designer, I felt. That's a that's a human thing that you want to be informed about things you pay money for, or it's even if you order a car and you don't know when it's coming. You want to know. Okay, when can I drive it? When is it ready? And you're like? And it's nice that you're surprised, like, okay, we let you know that it will be ready then, and then, instead of you sitting there doubting like, okay.

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Roelfien Vos: Oh, I didn't hear for for another week.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah. And so, what what are clients doing? Then? They call you? They mail you. They.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, I think managing the process, especially in in this segment, is very important, because people have other things on their mind. They won't. Don't want to worry about this. And I I don't wanna say that that we don't make mistakes. Of course we're also human being, and it's not that I sometimes forget something which is like human. But then I think this, the second rule is communication, and just also say, Hey.

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Roelfien Vos: I see this now, and

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Roelfien Vos: I want to talk about it. And let's see that we that we fix it. And what's your idea? And I think an open communication with your clients. And also, yeah, always be the one to initiate

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Roelfien Vos: the the conversation, not waiting. Sit back. Do your work. Focus on the design. No, you should also focus on managing the project.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: That is a balance that you always need to need to have. And

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Roelfien Vos: you can. You can lose yourself and the creativity of a project.

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Roelfien Vos: but the mostly the client has no clue or no idea how much work it is. They don't. They only see that part of communication, so they only see that side.

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Roelfien Vos: so that needs your attention. I think that is where the success can lie.

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Roelfien Vos: If against being successful, not successful. So that like, that's right in that little difference

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Roelfien Vos: it it is not a little difference. It is a big difference, but it seems to be a small twist in the way you work.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, great to hear that because we developed a method, we always do it with the client, the kind of co creation method. In 4 weeks we do the whole interior design master plan. But then, in the end, that that takes 3 days with our clients. But then, after those 3 or 4 weeks.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: The client is like, Okay, now, the design is, it's it's done. This, is it? This is great, this is wonderful. And they're happy. But then the biggest part for us starts. That's the most hardest job is all the detailing all this

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: subscriptions, descriptions whatever. And there's there's the part with communication

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: they are like. Oh, I can't wait. When is it ready? No, please make sure you manage the expectations that they exactly know. When is the next appointment? What can they expect if they have questions, what can they do? How can they communicate with you? Is it Whatsapp? Is it an email? So we always tell them like, define your own terms, upfront the game rules.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: and then you will have a very smooth design process. You can focus on your design and you can focus on the right moments to your clients, and they are just waiting patiently, hopefully. Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: they don't complain. They don't bother you. They don't meal you. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, you you don't have to wait for anything. You're just you're in charge. And I think that is important. Important. What you just said, like, Okay, manage expectation. But also say, Okay, this is how we see the process. And this is a dear client where you fit in. And this is where you come in, and this is where I need you. Our projects in like the the luxury residential field.

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Roelfien Vos: are mostly like 3 or 4 years that we work on it. So we also get to know the client really well. So choosing the right interior designer is like almost a petite marriage. Where, if they sit here, I want to know, like, will this be a successful relationship?

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Roelfien Vos: And that's so important that there is like the factor that you like each other. That's the bare minimum minimum to make it success. So if you have the feeling like, okay.

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Roelfien Vos: I doubt if this is my kind of person that I can click with. Then I think you should be so smart for yourself and not go there.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Say no, you have.

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Roelfien Vos: It will. If it takes 3 or 4 years, it will kick in each and every time. In communication in yeah, whatever if you do shopping series with your client, and mostly these are international shopping events where you go. Mostly we most of our clients fly there so we can go with them in their

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Roelfien Vos: on their journey, and then you you travel. So you sit. You also come into their private space.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Not only in their homes, but also, like physically. You. You go shopping, you go to Paris, you go to Milan.

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Roelfien Vos: And you walk around. You have lunch together, you have dinner. So it's a very, also private and intimate relationship. And that is also something you really need to take an account. And I think in this field you have to be.

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Roelfien Vos: You have to like people. Love is maybe a bit too strong. But you have to be curious curious about people. What makes them tick. It's not only what makes me tick, but that's, I think, very important, and then you can deepen the relationship a bit, not per se on an only personal level, because we also have clients that

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Roelfien Vos: are a bit more like, yeah, they hold a bit back.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah. Reserved. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, a bit reserved. But then still you have for them for their feeling a very good relationship that you're building on. So that is also another success factor. Don't focus on yourself, on your own design in terms of management. But also, yeah, keep in mind that it is a relationship like a real relationship

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Roelfien Vos: like a friend. You also don't pick friends like, okay, that is, it's all.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: And yeah, and on the scale, on the scale you're working on, that, you work 4 years with the client. It's it's a part of your life.

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Roelfien Vos: It is.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: A percent, really, a percentage of your life. Yeah, yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: And also, yeah, the most of our clients that we have come back to us. So you build a relationship. For years I have like half of my clients are repeating clients and.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Great, that is.

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Roelfien Vos: One of the things I'm really proud of, because then you did, well

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Roelfien Vos: and yeah. And there are really like relationships, like, Okay, how's this or that? How are the children now? And

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Roelfien Vos: yeah, so it's really nice. It's also something that I find appealing to this work that you have that interaction with people.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: I what I do like about repeating client we had last summer. We had 3 clients from 7 years ago. This, the starting point of masters of interior design which I run with. But

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: It was magical to start with a with a with a client. You already know all the conversations you already got. It was like 7 years in between. It was gone. We just

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: continued where we left, and that was magical about how you about intimacy, about the communication levels, the humor, the what you can say to them or what you're not. You don't have to be that strategic. You can be your authentic self, because they know you already. I think those are the best projects right now. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Good to hear. So we have that we share that experience, and also what you mentioned authenticity

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Roelfien Vos: like be yourself, I think, especially in in the High End sector. People like that. You're really yourself.

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Roelfien Vos: Don't don't put a face, or don't put like put

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Roelfien Vos: better than you are, or I don't know. I think they like like people that are straightforward, and we with their feet on the ground

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Roelfien Vos: like, be grounded.

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Roelfien Vos: So yeah, altogether, I think our success is

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Roelfien Vos: that a bit the things that we talked about? Now, if you count them all together, that's part of the success, and, like the 1st part, is, of course, the great creativity. And

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Roelfien Vos: yeah, we have a we. We changed

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Roelfien Vos: as as I told you, that we're working on a a new marketing concept. We don't change anything in the company, not our dears, but we just want to share it more.

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Roelfien Vos: So one of the things that we say is like, as I said to you, tailored to wonder

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Roelfien Vos: and.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: A little wonder. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: It's a kind of vision mission of your of your company to to share with your with your clients what what's kind of direction you're going, and it's almost a kind of brand promise, right? You're promising them a wonder instead of a beautiful interior design.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah. The other one is advocates gentle over dominant and confidence over arrogance.

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Roelfien Vos: And that says in a few words, who we are. And yeah, how we take.

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Roelfien Vos: And that's also from these 2 sentences you already have feeling.

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Roelfien Vos: who is this? What can I expect? So I think it's also

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Roelfien Vos: important to already be clear in the promise that you have on your website or in your communication on the website or Instagram whatever. So that's something we really focus on. Now that it's really clear from the beginning what to get yourself into.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: We call it the design principles or the design religion. It's part of our interior impact formula, the training we do in the coaching. It's a kind of foundation for great design. People are signing up for this promise or this vision or this vision, if they like it. You're the designer. If they want to believe it, you are the designer. It's like, there is this connection, and you attract

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: with this sentence this kind of rule sets or game rules. You attract the right clients. Yeah. So that's again what you're telling me. Be authentic. Be yourself. Otherwise you will attract people if you don't tell them you like a you are a perfectionist, if you're not.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: We once had a lady who said, I'm a real perfectionist, and and all her communication were grammatical mistakes, and she was not perfectionist at all, but in interior design. Yes, but not in the way she works and communicates. So there's a there was a problem going on with her company because she was attracting all this perfectionist, like everything, needs to be good in communication level in this and this and this? No, she just wanted to attract people who loves a beautiful perfection, perfect design.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: But for the rest he could. She likes people that just going smooth and free communication. And that's kind of.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah. Sounds good.

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Roelfien Vos: Cold.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: It was difficult. Yeah, but it she.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: So

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: well, we call it the set of principles. So yeah, you have. You have a few. So that's great. You can communicate them.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: You stay true to yourself that way, and the client relationship will well flow in the right direction, because they know who you are and what you do and how you do it.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, what about this kind of style and signature? If you talk about principles, can you? How how can you say that because you say you can. Well, you you yeah. Well, you don't call it go with the flow. But you it's custom made, it's tailored.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: So how do? How do you? Because they can expect everything actually, if they work with you.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, yeah, I think if you say we advocate gentle over dominant, that also gives already something about a style.

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Roelfien Vos: It's not going to shout and confidence over arrogance. So there is also a certain luxury in it, a certain promise that it's somehow that it's balanced.

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Roelfien Vos: So if I look at this, the style, I think balance is definitely a thing that is important. But what is key is that from the start it seems to be like

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Roelfien Vos: opposite

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Roelfien Vos: things like something very raw, with something very sophisticated. So if you look at my designs, you will also always see those.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, these contrasts. That's the right English word. So the contrasts that are designed to be balanced.

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Roelfien Vos: and that can be like in color, in

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Roelfien Vos: materials or in forms. So these are the 3 ingredients that you need to manage within a design.

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Roelfien Vos: And there, I love to make like these little. Yeah, we say, they're.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: This word like, like, Okay, that's like.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: It's a kind of itchy itchy combination. Yeah, like, oh, yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Wow! What's happening there, and and a little pop, and it can be a color texture or a form. And so that you also

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Roelfien Vos: can can

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Roelfien Vos: give people like a smile on their face. So that's like, Oh, wow! That's cute. Or Oh, that's so. It's also nice to put a little cute fun factor in not to laugh out loud, but that it puts a smile on your face that that's something I definitely like like to do.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, what I what I love to hear from you is that your principle set is not about like I'm aesthetic. I'm a aesthetic principles like, I'm a minimalist, or I'm a country life style designer, or I'm classic or new, Modern or new Metropolitan, whatever it's you're you having an well, we call this the beyond level you're communicating in another level than just aesthetics. It's kind of the vision behind the aesthetics.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: And there you create for yourself lots of freedom.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: but also great understanding of your clients. Why you do what you do because they can understand

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: your design decisions not by like, oh, do you like this or not? No, I don't know. Do you like this or not? And then you have to design 7 times. Do it over and over again, and the client doesn't get it. No, they get it because your set of principles.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: yeah, you educated them.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah. And if they if they like these principle, we start designing. So if we have a new client, we always start with a with a very extensive meeting.

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Roelfien Vos: I love to do that in their homes where they live now, because then they also can point out. They do miss like, Oh, I'm mostly like, Okay, I love that chair. It's it has been for my grandma, and so dear to me.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Or you get so much information also how they they act in their homes, how they walk around, and they point out things. And we have, like a like a questionnaire that

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Roelfien Vos: go through with them, so that I have a good vision and good idea what they like.

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Roelfien Vos: and the clearer the client is there? The yeah, the faster it it goes. And I think

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Roelfien Vos: to be honest, it never happens that we start up with a design that people don't like.

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Roelfien Vos: Of course, I always try to ask, like, Okay, out of 10,

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Roelfien Vos: where are we now? In in this design idea and this direction.

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Roelfien Vos: and the lowest that we score is just under 8

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Roelfien Vos: but mostly it's it's yeah 10. It's a bit of a difficulty. But but 9 at at least it's 9, and then you have, of course, like you have to steer a bit to the left, to the right, or

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah. So you measure it in the design process every time you have some kind of checkpoints like, are we heading in the right direction?

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Roelfien Vos: No, that's that's just really in the beginning, because it's like, if you start up to design. And, for instance, what I like to do is start with one room

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Roelfien Vos: and say, Okay, we. We're going to do this whole house now. But let's start with one room that is really

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Roelfien Vos: important to you. Which one would you like to suggest.

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Roelfien Vos: and doing that and getting the direction in that process will help you for the other room. So that means that if it's not like a 10,

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Roelfien Vos: then you can see, okay, where is it? Is it in the materials? Is it in the colors? Is it in the whatever it can be anything. Sometimes it's just a face it's like, I love it. But that face boom.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: So, yeah, yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: That is.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: That's an easy one. That's an easy one.

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Roelfien Vos: But yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: of course, that's a minor detail. But having then division on one room, you can replicate that to the other rooms. Not, of course, design, but the design idea from the atmosphere. So you have the principles. But then you have to set an atmosphere which is then the next step that you that you take.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, I I like it because the way you decide all the shapes, colors, and materials is based on the emotional level. At the Institute. We have the the beyond, the Terrorism Club. We have the the phrase form follows meaning.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Really, that's our religion. I think it all has to do with meaning. If it has no meaning for people, why should they go for this

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: probably beautiful designs

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: design. But then, what's what's the value of it in their life? If you have something beautiful and doesn't mean anything.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: what is it worth.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, I do think that are also there is also a certain market that likes to just say, Okay, I like this designer that does always like that is recognizable, like, Okay, it's from that hand. And I want to

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Roelfien Vos: have a bit of a replication of that.

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Roelfien Vos: This is another group of people where they say, Yeah, it has. My interior has nothing to do with me.

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Roelfien Vos: It's yeah. It could be.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: It sounds crazy for me. But there are people in the world living that way. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah. And that is really, actually very funny. And also, I'm always curious to these kind of people, because you meet them. Of course, also not not so much. It's not the clients that sit here on my desk of at my desk.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: You will meet him. Yeah. Once. Yeah, yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: And then I'm always like, Okay, but I can also understand with how they explain that

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Roelfien Vos: that works for them. But that is also fine. I think that for everybody there is an interior designer, and there is enough work for all of us. And yeah, that's the beauty of it.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: I didn't just.

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Roelfien Vos: I do think, if you're like that, that the your home should reflect who you are.

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Roelfien Vos: If you come to somebody's home, it's nice, like, Oh, yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: if I would have thought of your home, it looks like this.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: I find these days always a good example. The film with

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Roelfien Vos: where they exchanged the 2 girls where they.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Dolly Day.

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Roelfien Vos: The holiday.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Guilty. Pleasure. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: I I think every year I look at.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: We do guilty? Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: I love it, but.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: I do that.

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Roelfien Vos: Very nice way where you see, like the homes you can already like. See the the person

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Roelfien Vos: it it fits. So.

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Roelfien Vos: girl in the cottage and the American girl in the huge house, and that they did perfect, and I think.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: All these objects, all these activities that doesn't work for the other one the way, how they open the door, the entrance! Everything is off on their lifestyles. Yeah, it doesn't work for them. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: I think that is a very good way. If people don't understand. What are you saying? Most people know this film, and I always say, like, this is a good way to show how a home works for a person. And the other way around.

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Roelfien Vos: yeah, great example, find it a funny funny example. Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, it is. Well, talking about work, life, balance

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: and interior design can be all consuming.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, that's you know. How do you balance your career with your personal life.

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Roelfien Vos: To be honest. It is one big soup

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Roelfien Vos: of where I I don't make really a distinction, I think you say in English, of of a of a between.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: You don't separate work.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, I don't separate them. Because I love my work, and if I'm at home, I'm also over working on a project or sketching or thinking about it, or making some calls do my emails.

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Roelfien Vos: Think about new challenges, new things to take on. There is sometimes where I find that peace and like, Okay, let's do nothing in my head that's like with Yoga

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Roelfien Vos: or I recently visited my daughter. She lives on Bali now, and there you have a good opportunity to to relax. And we went into the jungle. And then it's really family life, I think.

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Roelfien Vos: What I find to be important is is family life, but my social life is very much work related. I have a few very good friends in my private life, but I think 3 or 4 of the days in the evenings I'm

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Roelfien Vos: out and about. And it's mostly related, not not specifically only work, but it's people that I know through my work, or it's related to work, and and I'm fine with it, and also that is important to to tune in with your partner. We have a I have a relationship for now almost 15 years.

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Roelfien Vos: and we need to tune in how we see live.

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Roelfien Vos: And my partner is yeah, he's not working a lot anymore because he chooses to travel a lot he is a mountaineer

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Roelfien Vos: dies. He just went to Philippines a few weeks, and then we said, Okay, just give each other the freedom to follow your heart and do

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Roelfien Vos: sounds good.

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Roelfien Vos: You like, would I? He can't ask from me. Okay, go on these travels. It's fine, but I do it in a different way, and I want to be here with my team to support and to give my design idea and how I wanted to do it. That's important here. So we really talk to each other and say, Okay, we have this amazing life together and we love each other. But also there is a

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Roelfien Vos: yeah things that we do on our own. I focus on.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yes.

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Roelfien Vos: He has other plans, and it's fine. And I think that decision gave me a lot of peace because it was like, Okay, but I have to do both, and I'm I can't.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: You want to. You want to do both.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, and.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: If they ask you at the airport, is it the business or pleasure you? You tell them business and pleasure.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, yeah. So so in the end we find a perfect way to to get it done. And yeah, I was married in the past 2 times, and I wasn't able to to make it work.

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Roelfien Vos: Of course you learn from your mistakes, and there were lovely husbands, and I look back to it also with love in my heart

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Roelfien Vos: I changed a lot over the years we already talked about it. When we were in the car, and.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: The the, as you know, my oldest daughter passed away, and that is now 4 years ago.

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Roelfien Vos: She was

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Roelfien Vos: ill for a really long time. So during my career, that was, yeah, you couldn't say on the background, but it was always there.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, the.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: You cannot ignore it. It's impossible, impossible!

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Roelfien Vos: When we know that she would pass away, and that on one hand she made me follow my heart. When I got

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Roelfien Vos: to know that she was sick and and now on another

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Roelfien Vos: I of course I miss her. But she's the the big yeah,

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Roelfien Vos: right for you right now. Yeah, definitely.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Kind of guiding you, guiding you in life.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: To make the right choices.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah. And I yeah, that was like the big change in my life when she passed away, that it gave me a softer part of myself. It showed it opened up, and I had an interview last week. And then talking about it, it occurred to me like, Okay, this is how this is, how it is I was like in a tunnel. I switched the light on so that was fine for me. The light was there, and I needed to

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Roelfien Vos: to, to guide her, to be with her and and to have the career. That's what I wanted. And of course I also also wanted to take care of her. And now it's over 4 years ago, and I see that

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Roelfien Vos: the the tunnel that I get out now and there is now like daylight, so that changes so.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Oh, yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: I?

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Roelfien Vos: yeah, that that is something that really made me who I am now and where I'm standing now, and I really appreciate. And I am grateful for that softer software side that I

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Roelfien Vos: have now. And I.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, that's yeah. If I remind you from working with you back, that was, that's a tough lady.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah. Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: And you were doing everything for your clients, everything. I remember I had to go on a on a Sunday in a car, bringing a bringing a chair, and I was like, is this

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: the career of an interior designer? Well, I know where you are right now, but I I know, too, that you change your terms, and living on your we call it living on your own terms. Your terms have changed, and you can still do an amazing job for your clients. You don't have.

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Roelfien Vos: Better.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: There are 20 better, even better. What?

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Roelfien Vos: Better.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Okay, tell me more. What's changing if you don't bring a delivery chair on Sunday morning.

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Roelfien Vos: I think you. You need to stay close. What is genuine to you? And I think everybody wants that Sunday breakfast with a nice cup of coffee or tea, or whatever you like.

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Roelfien Vos: that you need that time for yourself. So if you put that stress, for instance, bringing a chair on a Sunday, it will not make you happy, so every guess

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Roelfien Vos: that you say to a client should also be a Yes to yourself.

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Roelfien Vos: It's a yes to your client, but it feels like a No for yourself, and you do that often

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Roelfien Vos: that leaks energy.

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Roelfien Vos: And I think it's important to do like, okay, it feels yes.

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Roelfien Vos: and for me, for the client. So it's good to do.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: I do?

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Roelfien Vos: If you are like, feel like

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Roelfien Vos: I don't feel like it. Sometimes you have to do things that you don't feel like, but.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Of course. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: It should be a balance like if it's once on every on a scale of 10. That's fine. But don't go further, because your energy will leave, it will leak.

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Roelfien Vos: Everything that you do should be a definite yes, and if there is something like on a scale of 10, there is a 9? No? Then you should either rethink your career, rethink your set of rules. So then you really have to look at your life, how you look at things and how you please, maybe too much the people, because.

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Roelfien Vos: as you said, if it would would have been on a Monday, that would also have been fine.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Probably, yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, or take the freedom in communication. Say, Hey, client, I have a a family I want to dedicate to Sunday to my family. I want to come on a Monday. I'll be at your place at 9 o'clock. Is it okay with you? Everybody will be okay with it.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: And people that are not okay with that, with with that, and not your kind of clients. If it's only based on. I want it on Sunday

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Roelfien Vos: that are not the clients that you want to work for.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: No, at least we're not. We don't want to work for those people. No.

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Roelfien Vos: I think, in general, for every person goes. If you have to do things that are like working against you, because that works against you. You can't give the right energy.

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Roelfien Vos: the quality of energy.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Correct.

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Roelfien Vos: The project because it interferes. It has a negative association.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, and it's really like working for them. And you want to work with them as well. You don't want to feel a kind of slave or just yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: I. It's.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Doesn't feel right disrespectful.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah. And if it feels right and it feels like a Yes, do it. And I think that is the short message to like you were talking about. How keep? How do you keep balance? I think that is important to have that feeling that all these things that you do are a yes for you, because then you're not leaking energy.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Gives you energy.

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Roelfien Vos: It gives you energy, and you stand like very strong in your own power and keeping

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Roelfien Vos: managing your own power is one of the successes that that are just

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Roelfien Vos: there for you. You just have to choose it.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Well.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: great! Yes. Well, we have a deep conversation, but it's it's so true. It's all starts with you, you are. It's not your business. It's you. You need to make decisions. You need to determine your set of rules. You need to determine your your

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: boundaries.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: your your principles. Yeah, it's you. So you you have the freedom to design your life, your business. So if you don't do it, somebody else would do it for you.

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Roelfien Vos: Then it feels like, you know.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Then it feels definitely like a no.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Is this? Is this career, anyway, for career of a professional interior designer? Is it suitable for everyone who likes interior design?

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Roelfien Vos: I think there is a difference working for an interior design studio like being an employee or of

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Roelfien Vos: having your own business your having your own business is definitely not for everybody.

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Roelfien Vos: But I think if you're creative and you love people, and you love creating, and

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Roelfien Vos: you have to write education. I think also, education is is key.

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Roelfien Vos: And yeah, if that is your passion, then go for it.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: I think.

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Roelfien Vos: Having a company is different.

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Roelfien Vos: If you're just yeah, like on your own. And you're yeah, could also work.

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Roelfien Vos: But I like also, I see the creative flow between the people that I have working here. And we have

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Roelfien Vos: people from 4 different continents.

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Roelfien Vos: And I also see the the way they work together. And what that brings to the table

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Roelfien Vos: is really very nice. So yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: I think the life of an interior designer you have to feel. Am I an entrepreneur, and does it work for me, having my own business, or what suits me the best? And it always sounds great to have your own company, but it has to be for you. And there again says, like, Okay, if it feels right, it's probably right. But if you're like, okay, I'm going to try it.

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Roelfien Vos: But I'm not an entrepreneur because of this, that and another. Then you might find a beautiful position in a in a bit of a bigger studio, or have to

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Roelfien Vos: to thrive there and then you can. Yeah, maybe you can also learn it. I don't know. I think entrepreneur is a bit also that is, in your genes.

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Roelfien Vos: and you should be very positive also important.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, definitely, yeah, you have to like problems because you think.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: You grow. That's what I say. I don't order them in the universe like, Hey, I like problems. Universe. Give me more problems always when? The when? Something? No, but when when there is a problem, I'm like, Hey, this is an opportunity. How can we fix this for in the future that it don't happen yet.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: But that's that's the stupid positivity you need to have as an entrepreneur. Otherwise you're off. You're depressed and like, what are the clients doing with me? They are.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: You are the victim, and you don't have to be the victim. You are the creator of your life, so you have to see that way. You are in the lead.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah. And I think just what you just say now are 3 very important things, but it have to grow to your heart instead of in your brain. If that only sits in your brain and you say it.

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Roelfien Vos: it doesn't work. If it's like you experienced it, and it is in your heart it will work.

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Roelfien Vos: but I think this is deep enough now.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: No, hey! We are in the beyond. The terrorism.

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Roelfien Vos: Oh, okay.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: We go be live in spiritual, in entrepreneurship. And yeah, it's this is the playground. So no, I'm happy that you share it because it's, it's so this is again, so human. Yeah, you can talk about skills. But it is about

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: you as a personality individual. How how do you feel? And that's that's the energy

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: you you bring into the world. Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah. Well, role of, I'm curious. What role has mentorship or coaching played in your journey in your career.

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Roelfien Vos: Some looking back as I just shared that I started when I was 30 and I 30, and I started with a Millware company. I'm grateful to for that company that I had the opportunity to be there, and to.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: That that felt like coaching.

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Roelfien Vos: That felt like poaching, but especially the interior architect that was had an office there, and he gave me the opportunity to work with him, and he's a very still, a very skilled interior architect, and even nowadays also an architect. So he he does amazing things, and most of the things I know, especially from a technical point of view and millwork. I know I learned from him

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Roelfien Vos: and we were later on. We were also married.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: That's.

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Roelfien Vos: 4th later. So but still there I I look back on that like with lots of love, and I am sure that he also does, but it wasn't meant to be for always.

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Roelfien Vos: So I'm still following him. And he played a big role in the life of my both my children, and that is very, very dear to me. So I have a warm feeling towards

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Roelfien Vos: him as a role as a mentor. But yeah, also in my personal life. So I had the privilege to have that as a combination. So I'm really, really happy. And nowadays I'm very open to people. I like to talk to the people, and the plan that I have now is

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Roelfien Vos: having a little group of people that are thriving in all the fields than I do, and like that, I plan to get together once every year with these 4 people to say, Hey, what's going on in your company. How do you see the future which things are happening now out there? So you can also feel

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Roelfien Vos: if you need need to change something, or if you, if you're on the right path, or I think it's very important to keep

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Roelfien Vos: curious and learn from people, especially also in other fields, say.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: I do have a I do have a buddy indeed, with a with a big company in Germany and insurance. And it software. I met him in a business event in a kind of Vp. Diamond room, where I always book my tickets, because there you meet the right people.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: With it with on the level. You want to go, actually. And I'm once in a while we have a we have, we meet

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: and we talk about. And it's funny because the he's a really rational numbers Guy, and I'm this for him, this free, creative mind and.

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Roelfien Vos: Hmm.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: We. We talk about our businesses and we. It's funny because it's such a different world. But we can get along very good, and I can give really good business advice to that company, although I don't know it, and the scale is

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: way bigger. It has hundreds of employees. But I do you do have ids? Because you zoom out. You have another perspective, and he has a big business owner. She's this had quite little company

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: with a small team, and it's like, Hey, you need to fix this if you want to grow, do that. I I love it so good to hear that you do the same.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: not in your field, so don't hang out with other interior designers, but because they all have the same perspective sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, we also maybe you heard of it that I'm in the interior collective. It's a curated group of interior architects here in the Netherlands, and that is also a group of people that's not mentoring. But we. We also reach out to each other and say, Hey, I have this really challenged. Now going on, how would you deal with it? And then you get like from a competitor.

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Roelfien Vos: a nice advice. And we, our styles are so different that we don't.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah, there's no competition like

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Roelfien Vos: So that is also a nice group of people

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Roelfien Vos: that. I feel very comfortable with sharing ideas, getting ideas. And yeah, just be curious to other people and to other businesses. I think that makes you grow. If you, I think the saying at one day, like, Okay, I I reached what I wanted to have or where I wanted to be. That's never good. I think there's always like a next

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Roelfien Vos: thing in life or in next step in life and

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Roelfien Vos: curiosity. There was a song once curiosity kills the cat. But I think it's a curiosity.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Know. Yeah, actually in life, I think, yeah, if you're not curious anymore, you can better leave this world.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah.

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Roelfien Vos: Of course, there are also people that

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Roelfien Vos: tick different. So I think you have to to think what works for you. And yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: True, I don't. I don't want to. We don't want to judge, but if you look in in terms of growth and entrepreneurship, and

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: yes.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: have being a better interior designer. You need to be curious. If you're not curious, you don't. You stick somewhere.

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Roelfien Vos: Yeah. And then you and it's also nice. If I book look back on these 25 years. And they're also like, Okay, maybe I should, with the knowledge that I have now, I would have done differently then, and that is, that is a good thing.

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Roelfien Vos: If you say like, okay, I would have done the same things with the knowledge that I now have. Then you didn't learn anything.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: No, what would you change if you look back in your career?

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: What other thing did you learn like? Okay? If I knew that before.

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Roelfien Vos: I think that in the past, and you know me from the past, that I didn't put boundaries.

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Roelfien Vos: and that is something I really learned that leaking energy doesn't work, for the client doesn't work for me, doesn't work for anybody

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Roelfien Vos: with the knowledge that I now have. I would have more energy, and but it would be more clearer to only say yes to myself.

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Roelfien Vos: if if or yes to the client, if it's also like at least a bit of a yes to me. And I did things in the past

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Roelfien Vos: where I thought, Okay, it really feels like not doing it because it

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Roelfien Vos: it's like, I don't get any rest anymore. And so

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Roelfien Vos: that is something that I would do differently.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, agree? Yeah.

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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: So to wrap this podcast up, I have way, more questions for you. I think we could. We could literally made a part 2, maybe we will. Yeah. But

435
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Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: yeah, yeah, I love. I love to speak to you. I have so many more questions. And I love this in that conversation. That's the whole idea of the beyond Interior Design Club to to have a free conversation, and we don't script it at all. This is it. This is the true, the true interior design life. I want to wrap it up with a with a potential about dreams and aspirations.

436
01:00:13.200 --> 01:00:27.540
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Is there is there any dream project? Because you're working on? Well, in Saramont was a 40 meters yacht. I even heard you in other interviews and podcasts about talking about ships that you cut them in half extended with 10 meter extra. You.

437
01:00:27.540 --> 01:00:27.880
Roelfien Vos: Hmm.

438
01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:36.000
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Totally refurbish it. Well, it sounds like amazing challenges. What? What is it? Kind of dream project that is on your bucket list?

439
01:00:36.580 --> 01:00:40.600
Roelfien Vos: I actually have have a dream project and.

440
01:00:40.600 --> 01:00:42.090
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Going on already.

441
01:00:42.300 --> 01:00:43.130
Roelfien Vos: No, no.

442
01:00:43.130 --> 01:00:43.520
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: On your list.

443
01:00:43.520 --> 01:00:47.063
Roelfien Vos: No, no, it's on my list, and

444
01:00:47.710 --> 01:00:56.559
Roelfien Vos: I I'd love to do like a shop in luxury goods in one of the bigger cities

445
01:00:57.080 --> 01:00:58.620
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Kind of brands are we talking.

446
01:00:58.620 --> 01:01:01.586
Roelfien Vos: Yeah. Car. Shade your Chanel.

447
01:01:02.180 --> 01:01:03.840
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: It's all. Okay. That's that's the same for you.

448
01:01:03.840 --> 01:01:10.289
Roelfien Vos: No, I like. If I look at my closet. Yours is one of the brands, and.

449
01:01:10.290 --> 01:01:10.670
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: D.

450
01:01:10.670 --> 01:01:15.260
Roelfien Vos: Crochet is also a brand that I like from jewelry like very much.

451
01:01:15.270 --> 01:01:18.290
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, it's a go to brand for me.

452
01:01:18.740 --> 01:01:20.020
Roelfien Vos: But it it

453
01:01:20.270 --> 01:01:38.900
Roelfien Vos: it's it's it's more like another about so much that I find the brand to be important. What I like about it is that you can have, that you can make as an interior designer or interior architect an impact on the sales of a company of that level in the market.

454
01:01:39.090 --> 01:01:44.049
Roelfien Vos: I'm sure that I know that what the kind of people that go to these kind of stores.

455
01:01:44.090 --> 01:01:50.539
Roelfien Vos: what them, what make them, makes them tick. And I would love to translate that and say, Okay.

456
01:01:50.740 --> 01:01:55.820
Roelfien Vos: now we have this design, and turnover even increases.

457
01:01:56.620 --> 01:02:06.729
Roelfien Vos: So I think, having a role in because it's also from a commercial point of view. That's where where it comes from that you that you said, wow, that's

458
01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:07.930
Roelfien Vos: that's.

459
01:02:07.930 --> 01:02:17.359
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: You can measure the impact with numbers, not even not only emotions or happiness. Or that's hard to measure. Always. Yeah, these are literally, yeah.

460
01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:34.779
Roelfien Vos: And I do think that with the clients that we have and the experience that we have, they were that we're definitely capable of doing that. So I already reached out to the universe to send it. So I'm just waiting here to to

461
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:42.270
Roelfien Vos: to do it and like, for we are now doing the the

462
01:02:43.400 --> 01:03:00.760
Roelfien Vos: how do you say? The the Hotel Chateau Sengerloch? The last phase? We did it in in a few phases, and it will be ready just for before Tafe of 2025, and they now got just recently a 5 star instead of a 4 a 5 star.

463
01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:07.560
Roelfien Vos: It will not be only because of our interior design, but I'm sure that our design makes an impact, and.

464
01:03:07.560 --> 01:03:08.120
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yes.

465
01:03:08.120 --> 01:03:14.859
Roelfien Vos: Yesterday I saw it posted by L. Decoration, so I think we are in a good.

466
01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:15.980
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Great.

467
01:03:16.376 --> 01:03:17.169
Roelfien Vos: Position. Yeah.

468
01:03:17.170 --> 01:03:26.980
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, well, wonderful. So it's going to be a wonderful year for you next year, literally a year of wonders in your company when you're celebrating 25 years.

469
01:03:26.980 --> 01:03:27.610
Roelfien Vos: Yes.

470
01:03:27.940 --> 01:03:29.987
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, amazing congratulations.

471
01:03:30.860 --> 01:03:36.290
Roelfien Vos: Yeah, my new book will be out by the end of next year. So we're working on that.

472
01:03:36.310 --> 01:03:40.330
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: A coffee table book, or literally, a biography of your journey.

473
01:03:40.330 --> 01:04:01.389
Roelfien Vos: What I I do want to share some other things than only my own, my own work. I'm very fond, as we already talked about it about craftsmanship. So I would like to. I'm now talking to my most dear crafters that I have and worked with in my projects.

474
01:04:01.580 --> 01:04:02.219
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, too.

475
01:04:02.220 --> 01:04:14.729
Roelfien Vos: Have them in the book, share their story, show what they are capable of, and I think that is something that people really would like to see behind the scenes of like.

476
01:04:14.750 --> 01:04:16.770
Roelfien Vos: How is it crafted.

477
01:04:16.770 --> 01:04:17.160
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah.

478
01:04:17.160 --> 01:04:19.130
Roelfien Vos: Of people are even working.

479
01:04:19.130 --> 01:04:28.330
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: But again, it's so authentic. It's so you to use that craftsmanship. And that's how you see the world. That's your perspective on the world. So it's great to share this.

480
01:04:28.590 --> 01:04:47.940
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, this this quality, this expertise. Yeah, yeah, sounds great. I'm curious. Yeah, well, thank you so much for sharing your incredible journey and insights with us today, Fina, your your story is truly inspiring. I'm sure your listeners, our listeners, will walk away with a wealth of insights and motivation.

481
01:04:47.940 --> 01:04:48.610
Roelfien Vos: Yeah, okay.

482
01:04:48.610 --> 01:04:54.229
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, to design their own life and design to design them only businesses, and

483
01:04:54.400 --> 01:04:58.899
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: preferably in a in a relaxed and and smart way.

484
01:04:58.900 --> 01:04:59.270
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, yeah.

485
01:04:59.270 --> 01:05:05.779
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Possible for designers who are listening. I want to make well this year the best year ever.

486
01:05:06.230 --> 01:05:11.279
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: What kind of advice do you have for them to make this year the best year ever.

487
01:05:11.450 --> 01:05:18.850
Roelfien Vos: Yeah, the year is only 3 weeks until the end of the year 2 weeks. So I think it's hardly possible to change.

488
01:05:18.850 --> 01:05:23.259
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Well, we we will publish it in the 3rd of the 1st in January, but.

489
01:05:23.260 --> 01:05:23.690
Roelfien Vos: Okay. Good.

490
01:05:23.690 --> 01:05:24.090
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yes.

491
01:05:24.090 --> 01:05:24.695
Roelfien Vos: Sorry

492
01:05:25.300 --> 01:05:33.079
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: No, it doesn't matter. Yeah. So well, let's let me do it again. We could we get this far, then? Yeah, so it will be in the in the beginning. I have to tell you. Yeah.

493
01:05:33.080 --> 01:05:33.770
Roelfien Vos: Yeah, okay, so.

494
01:05:34.074 --> 01:05:43.819
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: So for designers who are listening, who want to make this year the best year ever to start it strong and stay focused. What's 1 piece of advice you would give them.

495
01:05:46.770 --> 01:05:48.180
Roelfien Vos: Can I do too.

496
01:05:48.819 --> 01:05:50.070
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Stay yes.

497
01:05:53.510 --> 01:06:01.240
Roelfien Vos: Stay curious and say yes to your yes, that would be.

498
01:06:01.240 --> 01:06:06.879
Roelfien Vos: That makes you this. These are the 2 things that will make you happy, and I think you'll.

499
01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:09.049
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yes, and say yes to your yes.

500
01:06:11.220 --> 01:06:11.830
Roelfien Vos: Okay.

501
01:06:12.440 --> 01:06:19.530
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Thank you so much. Thank you for being with us. It's been a pleasure, and well, I can't wait to speak to you next time.

502
01:06:19.530 --> 01:06:24.090
Roelfien Vos: Okay, thank you very much for your enthusiasm. And thank you for having me.

503
01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:25.270
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Thank you.

504
01:06:25.270 --> 01:06:25.960
Roelfien Vos: Okay.

505
01:06:28.110 --> 01:06:29.290
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: All right.

506
01:06:29.310 --> 01:06:30.679
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Thank you, Alfie.

507
01:06:34.050 --> 01:06:55.130
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: that's yeah. That's correct.

508
01:07:03.080 --> 01:07:03.520
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

509
01:07:03.520 --> 01:07:09.240
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, it's not.

510
01:07:09.240 --> 01:07:09.780
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

511
01:07:24.830 --> 01:07:25.200
Roelfien Vos: yeah.

512
01:07:25.200 --> 01:07:25.700
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, okay.

513
01:07:25.700 --> 01:07:27.069
Roelfien Vos: For sonic green oak. Yeah.

514
01:07:27.070 --> 01:07:52.910
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah mindfulness.

515
01:07:52.910 --> 01:07:53.360
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

516
01:07:53.360 --> 01:08:00.720
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: And what's next anew.

517
01:08:00.720 --> 01:08:01.340
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

518
01:08:13.500 --> 01:08:32.140
Roelfien Vos: Kumplimente.

519
01:08:46.829 --> 01:09:11.179
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: The much better. Not that works full of jar.

520
01:09:11.210 --> 01:09:19.829
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: He'll look. Yeah.

521
01:09:29.140 --> 01:09:39.600
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah.

522
01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:44.390
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: The game.

523
01:09:44.390 --> 01:09:45.020
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

524
01:09:45.020 --> 01:09:45.410
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Oh, okay.

525
01:09:45.410 --> 01:09:48.490
Roelfien Vos: Noud.

526
01:09:48.490 --> 01:09:48.810
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: It's.

527
01:09:48.810 --> 01:09:53.120
Roelfien Vos: More. Yeah, exactly.

528
01:09:53.120 --> 01:10:11.370
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: She's here in the camera guide, and that

529
01:10:18.005 --> 01:10:19.370
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: oh.

530
01:10:19.370 --> 01:10:22.340
Roelfien Vos: Metat, orang.

531
01:10:22.340 --> 01:10:28.600
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Oh, sorry!

532
01:10:28.600 --> 01:10:29.140
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

533
01:10:29.742 --> 01:10:30.947
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: If geicot

534
01:10:31.550 --> 01:10:35.640
Roelfien Vos: Posch.

535
01:10:38.465 --> 01:10:40.430
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah.

536
01:10:40.430 --> 01:10:41.420
Roelfien Vos: And the ultra.

537
01:10:41.420 --> 01:10:42.320
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, yeah.

538
01:10:52.500 --> 01:11:01.900
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: die, be podcast. Word.

539
01:11:01.900 --> 01:11:05.890
Roelfien Vos: Oh, yeah, my dad, the Andre the Hofter.

540
01:11:05.890 --> 01:11:07.310
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: D Villya Darfur.

541
01:11:07.310 --> 01:11:07.640
Roelfien Vos: Dash.

542
01:11:07.640 --> 01:11:08.420
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, yeah, ma'am.

543
01:11:08.420 --> 01:11:13.990
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

544
01:11:14.450 --> 01:11:17.360
Roelfien Vos: Hate it, Shakmara. Here.

545
01:11:17.360 --> 01:11:18.230
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Happy telephone.

546
01:11:18.230 --> 01:11:19.130
Roelfien Vos: Yeah, you said.

547
01:11:19.130 --> 01:11:20.230
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: As Arthur, pointy.

548
01:11:20.230 --> 01:11:21.789
Roelfien Vos: Yeah, no, no need to talk to you.

549
01:11:22.275 --> 01:11:22.760
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Okay.

550
01:11:23.500 --> 01:11:24.980
Roelfien Vos: Mckins my.

551
01:11:24.980 --> 01:11:29.430
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Oh, in your, in the app.

552
01:11:29.430 --> 01:11:32.490
Roelfien Vos: Photo and

553
01:11:34.020 --> 01:11:38.135
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: You know what's up my days in the camera? This is,

554
01:11:38.810 --> 01:11:39.310
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

555
01:11:39.540 --> 01:11:49.830
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, this topic. I picked.

556
01:11:49.910 --> 01:12:01.940
Roelfien Vos: Yeah. And over, yeah, node.

557
01:12:02.170 --> 01:12:15.770
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, and.

558
01:12:15.770 --> 01:12:16.810
Roelfien Vos: Oh, what's fun, sir.

559
01:12:16.810 --> 01:12:37.290
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Main tone of Voicenel AI. Made.

560
01:12:37.300 --> 01:12:40.780
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: But that's.

561
01:12:40.780 --> 01:12:46.660
Roelfien Vos: So, Hood, for once we take it for business. Wise

562
01:12:47.260 --> 01:12:52.340
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: It begin to sneer, wheel, yeah.

563
01:13:01.536 --> 01:13:02.510
Roelfien Vos: Just next

564
01:13:16.065 --> 01:13:21.820
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Audio.

565
01:13:22.540 --> 01:13:36.300
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: And what extra dignity will promote of a sort marketing, ding.

566
01:13:36.490 --> 01:13:37.969
Roelfien Vos: Yeah, yeah, it could.

567
01:13:37.970 --> 01:13:39.080
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: 42.

568
01:13:39.080 --> 01:13:44.120
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

569
01:13:44.310 --> 01:13:44.920
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: No.

570
01:14:07.280 --> 01:14:09.310
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: what is.

571
01:14:09.520 --> 01:14:14.709
Roelfien Vos: Okay. Super. Log.

572
01:14:15.180 --> 01:14:25.210
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Is it? Yeah. Oken days, Mach, international Zain machine.

573
01:14:25.210 --> 01:14:27.090
Roelfien Vos: Schwartz, Kosper, Schwartz.

574
01:14:27.260 --> 01:14:28.540
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Gaspbert!

575
01:14:28.710 --> 01:14:30.750
Roelfien Vos: Smarts.

576
01:14:30.750 --> 01:14:31.400
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Files.

577
01:14:32.334 --> 01:14:35.540
Roelfien Vos: Who, you interior designer, interior architect.

578
01:14:35.540 --> 01:14:36.699
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: My Comte Vennan.

579
01:14:36.810 --> 01:14:38.150
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Now I'm gonna think.

580
01:14:38.150 --> 01:14:40.650
Roelfien Vos: And yeah.

581
01:14:40.650 --> 01:14:41.320
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Oh, well.

582
01:14:41.320 --> 01:14:43.229
Roelfien Vos: And and Tommy from Tank.

583
01:14:43.950 --> 01:14:54.410
Roelfien Vos: Tell me clear Copa clearer. It's a clear copa of clearer, N. Ka.

584
01:14:54.410 --> 01:14:56.610
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah, that's up in the

585
01:14:57.160 --> 01:15:01.549
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: and the ding of need think. Nay, oh, I like dual car.

586
01:15:02.220 --> 01:15:07.940
Roelfien Vos: Super local.

587
01:15:08.040 --> 01:15:16.750
Roelfien Vos: He'll creative.

588
01:15:16.750 --> 01:15:17.410
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: That's really.

589
01:15:17.410 --> 01:15:30.899
Roelfien Vos: The International and do bring, break break the past and the.

590
01:15:31.280 --> 01:15:34.540
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: We can't go open beyond levels.

591
01:15:46.400 --> 01:15:47.562
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Or Stt can.

592
01:15:50.475 --> 01:15:53.000
Roelfien Vos: Casper.

593
01:16:08.390 --> 01:16:10.140
Roelfien Vos: and gave it to the.

594
01:16:10.140 --> 01:16:10.550
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah. Okay.

595
01:16:11.950 --> 01:16:22.819
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yes. To me.

596
01:16:23.090 --> 01:16:24.660
Roelfien Vos: Yeah, we are persist, yeah.

597
01:16:24.660 --> 01:16:43.240
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: The global manager of design.

598
01:16:43.240 --> 01:16:45.930
Roelfien Vos: Now.

599
01:16:45.930 --> 01:17:08.170
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Koen.

600
01:17:08.170 --> 01:17:08.720
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

601
01:17:08.720 --> 01:17:28.550
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: It's a, yeah.

602
01:17:28.550 --> 01:17:39.170
Roelfien Vos: I told me clear. Go ahead now, clear cover clear

603
01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:50.020
Roelfien Vos: told me a lot of everything at sostorm. Uk and told me. Tank.

604
01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:05.790
Roelfien Vos: sit in Amsterdam, think interior design websites.

605
01:18:06.190 --> 01:18:09.320
Roelfien Vos: I do an oak for our contour and hospitality.

606
01:18:09.710 --> 01:19:02.020
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Okay, yeah. That's why bewinde supermoi.

607
01:19:02.020 --> 01:19:02.710
Roelfien Vos: Docht.

608
01:19:02.710 --> 01:19:06.340
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah. Londe, Comte, yeah.

609
01:19:06.340 --> 01:19:10.869
Roelfien Vos: Clearer copper.

610
01:19:10.870 --> 01:19:11.270
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Brilliant.

611
01:19:11.270 --> 01:19:16.219
Roelfien Vos: Partner founding partner from Amsterdam.

612
01:19:20.000 --> 01:19:28.480
Roelfien Vos: 4 leaves to Vog, wrote, okay.

613
01:19:36.510 --> 01:19:43.810
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah.

614
01:19:47.760 --> 01:19:49.060
Roelfien Vos: Yeah, I meant.

615
01:19:49.430 --> 01:20:16.730
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: No, and then the podcast

616
01:20:19.994 --> 01:20:28.570
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: and the business skills.

617
01:20:32.530 --> 01:20:34.080
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Literally, said my engineer, right.

618
01:20:34.080 --> 01:20:34.410
Roelfien Vos: That's okay.

619
01:20:34.410 --> 01:20:41.489
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: The longest quarter.

620
01:20:41.560 --> 01:21:03.779
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Weim interview skills took Omachra from the valley Inau.

621
01:21:03.780 --> 01:21:04.430
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

622
01:21:04.430 --> 01:21:18.630
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Rie, wow, I do not feel deeper than that for the podcast yeah.

623
01:21:22.640 --> 01:21:24.400
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: yeah, yeah, Ben knew you.

624
01:21:24.530 --> 01:21:25.860
Roelfien Vos: 7 factor.

625
01:21:26.510 --> 01:21:27.900
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: You see him, Facey?

626
01:21:27.900 --> 01:21:28.510
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

627
01:21:28.510 --> 01:21:30.610
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: So do we? Hood, yeah.

628
01:21:30.610 --> 01:21:32.360
Roelfien Vos: Yeah, yeah.

629
01:21:35.825 --> 01:21:39.290
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Yeah.

630
01:21:39.290 --> 01:21:45.929
Roelfien Vos: Yeah, I help you there.

631
01:21:50.940 --> 01:21:51.290
Roelfien Vos: Yeah.

632
01:21:51.290 --> 01:22:05.189
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Good. Thank you. Well, okay, it's not. Only wake up.

633
01:22:05.190 --> 01:22:08.780
Roelfien Vos: It's good. Okay, hey? Donkey? Well, and find the doctor.

634
01:22:08.780 --> 01:22:11.300
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Success. Yeah, so.

635
01:22:11.300 --> 01:22:12.540
Roelfien Vos: The Duche.

636
01:22:12.540 --> 01:22:13.020
Marc Müskens - Institute of Interior Impact: Boy.