Inside the Luxury Client’s Mindset – with Jeffrey Shaw

In this episode of Beyond Interior Design, host Marc Müskens sits down with former celebrity photographer turned brand strategist Jeffrey Shaw, to explore how interior designers can elevate their businesses by understanding the mindset of luxury clients. A trusted voice in high-end branding, Jeffrey brings a rare mix of creative experience and strategic insight — having worked with global icons like Oprah and now advising design professionals worldwide.

As an expert in luxury perception, Jeffrey reveals what truly defines a premium experience — and how designers can align their services with the emotional expectations of affluent clients.

Here’s what we explore in this episode:

• 🧠 The psychology behind affluent decision-making
• 🗣️ How to “speak the language” of luxury clients with clarity and care
• 💼 Why authenticity and consistency build stronger brand equity than flash
• 📸 Jeffrey's creative journey — from behind the lens to building legacy-driven brands

🎁 Bonus for Listeners:

Check out Jeffrey's brand strategy toolkit, podcast, and upcoming events:

• 🔗 https://jeffreyshaw.com/ (Full resources and client work)
• Follow Jeffrey on Instagram
• Connect on LinkedIn

📌 Connect with us:

Follow us for more interior design insights:

• Instagram: @beyondinteriordesign
• Website: www.beyondinteriordesign.club

🎧 Where to listen:

Find this episode on your favorite platforms:

• Spotify
• Apple Podcasts
• Buzzsprout

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Jeffrey: What you realize is that the luxury buyer that you might assume might be more surface level, that wealth is materialistic. Here's the secret. They're actually some of the most highly perceptive, intuitive clients you will ever work with on the face of the earth.

[00:00:25] Marc: All right. Welcome to that Beyond Interior Design Podcast, and today we're diving into the fascinating world of luxury as serving affluent clients with none other than Jeffrey Shaw. From humble beginnings to becoming one of the most renowned portrait photographer in the United States, Jeffrey has built an impressive career serving high-end gls.

[00:00:45] His exclusive clientele includes top executives, supermodels, sports icons, and Wall Street leaders. His work has been featured. On the Oprah show. CBS News and Evens on the walls of Harvard University. After 40 years [00:01:00] of delivering exceptional service to luxury clients, Jeffrey now shares his profound knowledge of luxury, biopsy, psychology, and high-end sales strategies.

[00:01:09] He's an author and tech speaker inspiring entrepreneurs worldwide to recognize and deliver their value at the highest level. At the Beyond the Dairy Design Club, we believe in ending with transformation. Imagine looking back on your ideal client after your collaboration, what do they do differently now?

[00:01:27] What has changed in their life, their relationships, their business. This is the beyond layer. We strive for meaningful impact that goes far beyond aesthetics. I. In this episode, we'll explore Jeffery's latest book, selling to The Rich, and Uncover how you can not just sell, but truly serve affluent clients.

[00:01:46] By the end, you have the tools and inspiration to elevate your business, to elevate your designs and the lives of those you work and live with. And now here he is. Jeffrey Shaw. Hello there, mark. Glad to be here with you. Thank you for [00:02:00] being here. Let's dive right in, because the concept of luxury has changed so much over the years.

[00:02:06] What does luxury mean in today's world? 

[00:02:09] Jeffrey: So on the surface, the obvious answer is. Luxury is a world, right? It's, it's not just a high price point, not just a high ticket, but what luxury brands do exceptionally well is they create a, a world that people want to belong to. And what's tricky about that today is of course that world includes digital form and brick and mortar form.

[00:02:29] But out of the front of the gate and the way most people think about luxury, luxury is a world that you want to be a part of and we'll, I'm sure have much deeper conversation, uh, about the psychology of that. But here's another way I like to encourage people to think about luxury as well, is that in a practical sense, you are in a luxury business when you're vying for people's discretionary dollars.

[00:02:53] And I think this is important for interior designers because I've met many interior designers that don't consider that they're [00:03:00] reaching a high-end clientele, but I'm like, but you're a service that is vying for discretionary dollars. They're, it's not a necessity. It's they are comparing. Gee, do I want to pay for an interior designer or do I wanna take a vacation?

[00:03:14] Ah, so the moment you are vying for discretionary dollars and your work with a clientele that has the money, power to make a decision as to where they put their extra money, you're in a luxury business. 

[00:03:26] Marc: Ah, yeah. But over the years we've noticed a shift we are entering, we call it a kind of new level. At first, it's might seem like affluent clients have lack of attention or are hard to engage to something, but there, there's more to it than that, right?

[00:03:40] What's really going 

[00:03:40] Jeffrey: on? I think the idea that humans don't have an attention span is one of the greatest excuses we've seen in modern era. I feel like it's just a lazy marketing, uh, to say, well, you know, the problem is people don't have attention. I was like, no, the problem is whatever you're doing isn't attention worthy because we're competing [00:04:00] against a lot of attention, all of us luxury buyers or not.

[00:04:05] Our lives are filled with things vying for attention. Now most of us have an advantage in that. Money puts boundaries on what gets our attention. You know, the Lamborghini might get our attention, but it's not in our sphere, so it doesn't get a lot of our attention. The challenge is that when you're working with luxury buyers where money is not as tight of a boundary, like in my keynotes, the very, my very first slide in my keynotes.

[00:04:29] Says that when money isn't the issue, everything else is Yes. And I say that because I just want people to realize like when you take money off the table, and not that it's not on the table at some level, but it's such a broad breath that when you remove that you no longer have the excuse. That people don't have an attention or that people don't wanna spend the money.

[00:04:50] You as a designer have to figure out how to be so exceptional that you stand out, not just as the best designer in your industry, but the best [00:05:00] decision of all the decisions the luxury buyer can make. 

[00:05:03] Marc: Yeah. So we, we just, one of 

[00:05:05] Jeffrey: their investments actually. Yeah. I mean it just, I actually look at it almost with a certain amount of empathy thinking.

[00:05:11] What it must feel like to live in a world where everything is your choice. And I think that is part of my work and what I teach, uh, business owners to look at, is developing more an unusual level of empathy for your clients. Like that might seem like an odd thing to say, like, oh my gosh, I feel so sorry for you, that you have so many choices in the world.

[00:05:29] But I genuinely feel that I'm like, gosh. How overwhelming that must be to live in a world where you're not held by the boundaries of what you can spend, and you have all the choices open to you, and it expresses the burden put on us as marketers of our businesses and our our talents. It puts the burden of us on to figure out how do we get their attention when they put their attention on anything.

[00:05:56] That's our challenge to take on 

[00:05:58] Marc: it. It is, but as, [00:06:00] as interior designers, we, we bring our own artistic skillset, our personal brand, and our creative vision to the table. But then there is this high net worth client who often has strong opinions, strong expectations, and sometimes even demands. How do we make sure we don't feel we have to sell our soul or hurt them with their wishes?

[00:06:22] Jeffrey: I'm really big on the energy of words. My very first book was called Lingo, and someday I think I'll put out an extra edition of Lingo because Lingo is a brand messaging strategy book where I share more branding strategies on how you use the right words and branding. But I think what's equally, if not a more important, which is would be the follow up book, is the energy of words.

[00:06:44] So, for example, one of the things I often tell my clients is one of the ways that you can shift how you feel about your high-end clients, those that appear to be difficult is one of the most common things said in the luxury business is that customers are [00:07:00] discerning. I. I don't know if ever if I've ever heard anybody's, and I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't know that I've ever heard somebody call somebody discerning without a little bit of a snide energy to it.

[00:07:10] Right. There's just a little bit of a jab there. Like, oh, you know, there are discerning clientele. Yeah. It kind of more sounds like you're saying they're overly picky. Right. So what I like to say is you have to reframe for yourself that they're not discerning, but they're deserving. They actually have gotten to a place in their lives where they deserve the best of whatever it is that they want, and kudos to them.

[00:07:33] So if they deserve that, it shifts how you approach them. So I think a lot of the negativity that we encounter in the luxury space actually needs to be the assumptions and judgments and the long held feelings that we as business owners or sales associates hold. I know this from a lot of luxury brands.

[00:07:52] This is one of the biggest problems they have with sales associates. They hire people who are really good at sales techniques, but they're holding [00:08:00] judgments and assumptions of their clientele, and they might think they're hiding it. But here, mark, I think is one of the biggest lessons and, and a friend recently asked me, what's the surprise of my book?

[00:08:10] Sell to the Rich. Here's the big surprise of the book. What you realize is that the luxury buyer that you might assume might be more surface level, that wealth is materialistic. Here's the secret. They're actually some of the most highly perceptive, intuitive clients you will ever work with on the face of the earth.

[00:08:30] Their intuition may have led to their success or the fact that when you become successful, and I've worked with clients that have inherited wealth and safe, self-made wealth. Ends up being equal, that when you become wealthy, you have to be intuitive because there's so many people targeting you. There are so many people after your money, there's so many opportunities coming at you.

[00:08:50] I find the luxury buyer, like I said, are some of the most perceptive, intuitive people on the planet. They've just become that way. Therefore, they are reading your [00:09:00] integrity. They're reading your honesty, they're reading whether you're in it for the money or whether you're in it for, uh, the good work you can do.

[00:09:08] They feel your words. If you call them discerning, they know what you're really saying and don't think they don't know it. If you understand that, you'll shift what you need to shift in yourself to come across better to them. 

[00:09:19] Marc: Wow. Yeah. This is, this is definitely next level with this. They deserve to have this mindset shift because what, what we teach our club members is they don't have to understand you, but make them feel understood.

[00:09:31] Yeah. Make them feel understood, means you really have to, how do they see the worlds? What do they experience? What kind of choices can they make? What kind of freedom do they have? Yeah. And if you are just like, Hey, I like to do it this way, and that's it, they don't take it. And it's 

[00:09:45] Jeffrey: complex. I mean, honestly, you, you don't live a life of affluence without a considerable amount of complexity.

[00:09:51] I. One of my favorite things to do was, for one reason or another, usually because I was getting paid or something, I would love to go into like the back rooms of my [00:10:00] client's homes because there would be these back offices that were running like corporations and their staff in the house, and there are people running the bookkeeping and people, I remember one client had a huge.

[00:10:11] Whiteboard on the wall, simply tracking when all the, the oil needed to be changed and all the cars. 'cause there were so many cars. And when you see that, you realize the complexity. Here's another reality. They also have the exact same things going on in their lives that you have going on in their lives.

[00:10:27] They have elderly parents that they're worried about. They have children who aren't behaving. They have many of the same challenges everybody else has. And they're trying to get through it all with their, how their head held high and due to their responsibilities. Maybe having to put on a front that maybe some of us, the rest of us can just crash at home.

[00:10:48] Like work with a luxury buyer, I feel like is a high bar. That becomes an, if you're willing to embrace it, becomes a really exciting challenge because if you can manage them, yeah, you can manage anyone. 

[00:10:59] Marc: Yeah. [00:11:00] Sounds great. You have a, a, well, you've been as a photographer in that closet, so you were in the household, say you saw everything.

[00:11:06] Yeah. What is it, uh, do you have any specific example how you managed a family with portraits? 

[00:11:12] Jeffrey: Yeah, but you're, you're, you're also selling something. Deeply personal, and that's what I have in common with interior designers and, and through my clients. I ended up working with a lot of interior designers because I was creating a really large portraits that were hanging like artwork in the home, and often my clients would want the approval of their designer.

[00:11:31] I. So I ended up working with a lot of designers. So I think we, we shared similar experiences, right? Both are businesses that are deeply emotional and deeply expressive of the client's lifestyle. One of the services we did in my photography business were very high end holiday cards. So my clients would be, I would be doing the photography that I would then.

[00:11:52] Have custom original holiday cards made for them and they'd be sending out to a thousand of their closest friends. Right. It's, it's [00:12:00] an expression of their lifestyle. And we would have very deep con, I mean, there were clients that I typically would photograph in a very formal way. I. But then we would realize that people think that that's all they are.

[00:12:11] Like they're just this formal family and they're not. So we would make sure that we also photograph them in a more casual way. Many of my clients had three to five homes, so we'd go to their other homes to, to share that part of their lifestyle. So it was very calculated, particularly for the holiday cards on what we're expressing.

[00:12:29] Of course, as designers. It's entire, their lifestyle, right? It's the impression that they're gonna make when they entertain at their house and throw far parties and galas, and it's the part of the house that they live in, but it's all an expression of who they are. It's deeply, deeply personal. So the conversa, that's why I, I like to say like, I don't just know this market.

[00:12:51] I spent 40 years being in their closets because we would have to have these inter intimate conversations about. Family dynamics. You know, the son that [00:13:00] doesn't get along with his father, I kind of need to know that ahead of time. Right. Um. Read or read it really quick. You know, I have to read these Dyna family dynamics very quickly.

[00:13:10] The children who are are shy or uncertain about being photographed and getting them to, to come out, uh, and, and light up in a camera. Uh, the moms who are sensitive to parts of their body. Advise them on the clothes that they would wanna wear. So it's all very intimate conversations. 

[00:13:29] Marc: This is the same, this is the same in interior design.

[00:13:31] Of course, people, people want to, to have all the kids in the new house equal size rooms, but then you do do see the characters and one, yeah, well the little girl wants to dance on the attic. She wants the whole full square meters over there. But then you have another boy and he's just into his computer screen and he likes to have a kind of ca, so you.

[00:13:51] This is the problem of those clients that we have to deal with as a third designer, that they want all equally shared spaces, but it's not, you have to design them differently. They have [00:14:00] their own characteristic, guilty pleasures, habits, whatever. And I love that to read that patterns and to shape them.

[00:14:08] Jeffrey: Exactly. And I think it's, I, I would be willing to guess most, I think for most, I don't wanna just say interior designers, but since that's the show, like I think most, for most of us. There is, there's room for us to be asking more in depth questions. I'm willing to bet your listening audience are probably already asking a lot of the right questions, and I'll bet there's more.

[00:14:30] Right? I'll bet there are more questions to ask and then when you know what you need to know. The next level, the beyond is what do you know about them that they don't even know to express? I think the goal in the goal in all of business, the goal even in marketing, um, I like to, to help businesses create brand messaging that's so on point for their ideal [00:15:00] clients.

[00:15:00] That to me, the goal in business is to get your clients to say, wow. It's like you're in my head. Like, because the only way you can achieve that, like, uh, my goal is to literally have my own clients, the clients of coach clients that I coach. My goal is to literally get people to say, wow. It's like you're in my head.

[00:15:20] What they're saying is, you know me so well that you know what I need before I can express it and nothing. Nothing is more powerful than that. Like I said, one of the things, another goal in the luxury business is ordinary businesses wanna build relationships. We want to build unbreakable bonds. I. That's, that's beyond relationship.

[00:15:43] Beyond relationships are unbreakable bonds where the depth of the relationship, the depth of them, feeling like you know them so well, is so terrific that they're never gonna break up with you. It's an unbreakable bond 'cause no one in the history of mankind has ever said to [00:16:00] anyone, you know me so well, you make me feel completely seen, heard and understood.

[00:16:04] Therefore we must break up like it has never been said in history. I can't imagine. 

[00:16:10] Marc: I created an amazing podcast episode about this kind of topic. It's called Mirror. Mirror on the Wall. I will not give you the whole story, but it was, but it was, I love that about a silly mirror hanging in the wall in the entrance in the old house.

[00:16:22] And this was an object that needed to move to the new house, and she didn't know why, but as a, well, we call it a green and red stickers, so she put a green sticker on it and she could not explain it, but in the end, the whole story of this mirror of her childhood, of the way, how she was treated as a, the youngest daughter of five at home, the way the father cheated the treated her.

[00:16:46] Uh, the way she picked her husband, it all came down to this. Silly mirror and well, this is the kind of goosebump stories that you are like, wow. Now this is, Hey, you are the interior designer, but [00:17:00] you're, this is, this is next level. This is, this is beyond, this is the magical beyond layer. 

[00:17:05] Jeffrey: It is. And I love, that's a, such a fantastic story.

[00:17:08] Uh, and it, it exemplifies something else to know about the luxury buyers that they all almost all have really complex stories. Even if it's inherited wealth, and that seems like an easy story, I'll bet there's some powerful fam. There are fam very powerful family dynamics to inherited wealth. And then there's this self-made wealth, which are the people that that just, they have incredible journeys of however they got there.

[00:17:34] But in the end, I always find your luxury buyers. Have stories just like that. Very complex stories, even behind some things that just symbolize something greater. Like that mirror, that's a fantastic story 

[00:17:48] Marc: or something. Most of the time it's something has to do with the childhood or something they were missing and now they have all the money in the world.

[00:17:54] Or at least enough. Yeah, and they, they want to have something back or they want to recreate [00:18:00] something of this magical. Childhood thing. It's funny, it can be a slight, a secret slides to the, to the garage. We created that or a, a secret door to a, to a guest room. Yeah. All this kind of playfulness that's there as, as a kind of c child dream, but now in a very, very luxury detailed design way.

[00:18:19] Of course, not a, not as, not for fun, but. Serious fan. Yeah. So how, um, many designers struggle to connect with high net worth clients? Eh, and you told me it, it can be difficult because you need to understand them. You have to change your mindset, eh, you need to think in terms of they deserve it. What, what do you think is essential?

[00:18:39] Yeah. To truly understand them. 

[00:18:41] Jeffrey: I think it's, you know, used, actually, I think you used the phrase earlier about walking in their shoes. And I, I love that because that is, or as I say, or the Louboutins, like, whatever, you have to walk in, right? You, you have to walk in their shoes and, and the phrase I like to use is embody.

[00:18:56] I like to use that phrase a lot because I think what you wanna [00:19:00] do is you wanna embody their lifestyle, right? Imagine now, I was a 23-year-old kid starting out in the world of, of luxury business as a a family portrait photographer for very affluent families, 23 years old, and I didn't come from that world, came from very lower middle class upbringing in a country town, a couple hours north of New York City.

[00:19:21] But I knew this is the clientele that I was meant to serve. I just knew it in my gut. I didn't come from that world. I knew I didn't know anything about them. I just knew that I was. Such a long-term thinker, like I was so unusual in my family and unusual. I grew up in an area where people were trying to figure out how to pay their mortgage that month or their rent, and I was already thinking about, you know, my son and I had a conversation recently, so I was asking, he's 32, and I asked him, I was asking him about life insurance and what he has and I told him, you know, I took out a really large life insurance policy when I was 20 and it was a 50 year term.

[00:19:58] And he is like, dad, what in the [00:20:00] world? Made you think at 20 years old that you would take out that size of a life insurance policy for 50 years. I'm like, I don't know. That's just who I was. Like I was somebody who always thought really far in advance, and photography has a lot to do with that. The, it's, it's, it's taking, it's preserving your children's memories.

[00:20:19] It's having Porsches to hand down from generation to generation. So I knew I had to work with a clientele that not only. Also thought that way, but had the money to pay for it. They weren't getting by month, a month, they had the means, you know, they're the clientele that the kids' college educations are paid for long before the kids are conceived.

[00:20:38] Right? So I knew that was the people I was meant to to work with. However, I didn't know anything about them, and that's when I took it upon myself. And what I encourage other people to do is to embody their lifestyle, live your life, wondering if you were them. What. Do you see in the world? What gets your attention 

[00:20:59] Marc: with the thing?[00:21:00] 

[00:21:00] Like when money is not the issue, right? Because I think that's a very powerful one. If you put that in your mind, when money is not the issue, you will make other choices. How 

[00:21:07] Jeffrey: does the world 

[00:21:08] Marc: look 

[00:21:08] Jeffrey: like if you don't come from that world? You really don't know it. You really don't know what. The world looks like from that perspective, unless you embody it.

[00:21:17] So I would, as I was, as a photographer, starting out every, for the first three years, I think, at least for every dollar I make, I made, I would go to some upscale store in New York City or a, a fine dining. I would live their life. Like I would go to, I would scrape up $20 to buy the smallest thing in a really expensive store, and then ask for it to be gift wrapped just so I could understand the process and understand the sales experience I was experiencing.

[00:21:46] Um, keenly aware of when I felt like I was being judged because I wasn't spending a lot of money versus when I was and how it felt to me. And so I embodied. The clientele. I, I wanna serve one of the, one of the more [00:22:00] controversial things I often say, and I don't know if the Dollar Store is a brand in Europe.

[00:22:05] Do you, do you all have dollar stores? No. Okay. 

[00:22:08] Marc: No, but you, but Euro stores this. 

[00:22:10] Jeffrey: Yeah. Same idea, right? It's a place you can go and you would buy, you could buy everything for one Euro or two. Right? Alright. So similar idea. And something I often tell people is like. Look, I know sometimes people are struggling.

[00:22:22] They might just be starting out, but the fact of matter is you can't shop in a Euro store and serve a high-end client at the same time. And the reason is that you can't expect people. To spend at the luxury level. If you yourself are cutting corners, you're asking your brain to hold two very opposite mentalities on one hand where you expect others to, to want the best, but you yourself are cutting corners.

[00:22:56] And I, again, that's that transparency and the, in the intuition [00:23:00] that's gonna, it's one's going to, to seep into the other, you're just not gonna come across the right way. 

[00:23:06] Marc: This is definitely the brand positioning, right? If you position yourself as a high-end air designer because you have maybe a beautiful portfolio, but you look at on the About us website or page and there's a kind of story like, yeah, well.

[00:23:21] About where you like to shop in this $1 shops because you want to find the best and cheapest items for them, then probably you don't ever match. 

[00:23:28] Jeffrey: Correct. It's exactly, and it's aside from the exterior opinion of that or how, you know, judgment of that, you're asking yourself to, to lie to yourself. Like you're asking one half of yourself or the people that you wanna work with to, to behave in a certain way that you're not willing to.

[00:23:45] So that's what I mean about, one thing I encourage people to do to really understand that this clientele is to embody their lifestyle a little bit. And you don't have to spend a dime. You go to the most expensive shopping district you know of and just [00:24:00] feel the vibe. Feel what's gone. Observe everything.

[00:24:03] What gets your attention? What's curious? What, what makes you want to buy? What impressions do you get that are favorable? What impressions do you get that are not favorable? Like just be them. I also think energetically it's a wonderful thing to do for yourself because you can sort of feel the abundance stripping, and I think that's important too because it can, it can, especially if, if there are challenging times in the world, it can make you feel like anything's possible.

[00:24:30] The challenges are temporary, but there's still, and there always has been more than enough abundance in the world to go around, and sometimes you just need to be reminded of that. So I think it's a very healthy thing to do, to really understand this clientele is embody their lifestyle a little bit, understand what they're going through and what they're seeing in the world.

[00:24:50] Marc: Well, definitely a fun exercise to do. E Exactly. Is 

[00:24:54] Jeffrey: not a bad way to get an education, 

[00:24:55] Marc: playing your restaurants, playing your trips. Mm-hmm. Plan your shopping, uh, shopping [00:25:00] tours. Yes. All right. For sure. Hey, how do we truly stand out in this kind of market where great is no longer good enough? Yeah. 'cause that's, that's a problem.

[00:25:09] Great. Is not good enough anymore. 

[00:25:11] Jeffrey: Great. Is the new standard in a way, thankfully, right? I mean, your average consumer, and again, this is something. Everyone has to realize, like I remember back in the day and I, I feel like it still gets said, and I think it's so ridiculous, but they used to encourage marketers to to market to a clientele the level of a 5-year-old.

[00:25:33] Right, and I get the point, right? The point was to make your market messaging so clear that even a five-year-old could understand it. The problem is, five-year-olds even are incredibly sophisticated buyers today, right? Let alone your future buyers, and particularly in in luxury interior design. Often they're, they can be pretty young families that you might think, you know, and they [00:26:00] might even, they might be casual in the way that they present themselves.

[00:26:03] They may come across like, they're not into the best of things. It's just you have to understand. And one of the, one of the challenges I, I've posed of, of some interior designers who are frustrated 'cause their clientele doesn't wanna spend the maximum amount of money on sofas or, you know, the highest quality of things.

[00:26:22] I was like. Yes, but ask them about the, the things they're investing in, enriching their kids' education like their 3-year-old kids. They will spend an unlimited money, amount of money on every language, lesson, music lesson, everything. Like you have to figure out what's triggering them. Just the priorities have shifted and that, and they're always going to shift.

[00:26:46] In, in the, in the world. So it's really the, the responsibility is on you to really pay attention to the social shifts. Um, again, kind of wiping away any judgements and assumptions you might have about the clientele [00:27:00] and really kind of get underneath like what are they valuing most today? That, honestly, nowadays, I think that shifts weekly, like what, what people valued a very short period of time ago has shifted and we're, and definitely the luxury market, and I think this is.

[00:27:15] I think this really impacts the interior design industry, that one of the, one of the value shifts in recent years has been a shift towards wellness, wellbeing, um, you know, practices of health of of health that is inevitably going to affect what people want in their interior design. The saunas that are part of the house, the float tanks.

[00:27:41] I always said if I build another house, I'm having a float tank put in. 'cause I go get, I go to a float tank very frequently. I'm like, I would love to have one just to my house. Um, but saunas, float tanks, cold plunges, you know, these are, and I think this is, I will say, I think the, I think the interior design industry is at a precipice of a [00:28:00] really good point.

[00:28:02] The interior designers that I do work with, I've made this point to them recently that when the world feels outta control for whatever reason, the one thing most people feel they can control is the environment of their home. And I think there's going to be this inward focus to people wanting to control their, their home environment as a respite from the rest of the world.

[00:28:32] I think that shows great promise for what people are going to want in interior design. It's just what they're gonna want and what they're gonna be willing to spend money on shifts. 

[00:28:40] Marc: Yeah. Well, yeah. The world is changing really rapidly. So they, they are going to invest more, even more in their hopes for the future.

[00:28:46] That's what you 

[00:28:47] Jeffrey: I think so. I really do. I mean, that's kind of, and I, if I have to, if I have to give myself credit for one thing in my, my 40 years of business that has always helped is that I have really good intuitions for what's coming. So I've always been able to stay ahead a [00:29:00] little bit, like, you know, over 40 years I've.

[00:29:02] I've encountered good economic times, bad economic times. I've always seen the bad economic times coming before it hit. Um, in part, 'cause as I said earlier, working with the luxury clientele is like real world on steroids. Their behavior changes quicker. Like the luxury market is the first to see a trend coming, good or bad, and they're usually the first to recover too.

[00:29:28] So that's the good news.

[00:29:32] To a potential downturn in the economy before most people even realize it's coming. And it's not, doesn't mean that they have inside information, but they tend to be so attuned. Um, and I, one, I'll give you a very practical expression of that, that. When you're working with a luxury buyer, you working with a clientele that is almost entirely using credit cards, right?

[00:29:52] They're using credit cards for their purchases and their payments because they get really wonderful benefits and services through their credit cards. [00:30:00] When there's any indication the economy is shifting, they will suddenly start paying with a check. Ah, right, because of the way they, I mean, not that they don't pay off their credit cards in full at the end of every month, but they want to start staying tighter within whatever limit, right?

[00:30:18] They just wanna be more careful. That is the complete opposite of the rest of the world. The 

[00:30:22] Marc: right now, if you look at right now Yep. Daily new. Now what, are they paying a bit more with checks nowadays or 

[00:30:31] Jeffrey: I'll, I'll bet they are. I haven't I That's a good que I'd love to start asking some of the brands that I work with.

[00:30:37] Yeah, I'll bet they are. I think you'll, I'll bet you're seeing more people, uh, paying with a check. As antiquated checks seem to me nowadays, right? Yeah. But you're going to sit where again, it's what's interesting about, it's the complete opposite of the rest of the world. The rest of the world goes into more credit card debt.

[00:30:55] Mm-hmm. During difficult times. Okay. So they, they used to pay with cash or credit or [00:31:00] checks. Suddenly they're throwing everything on a credit card. But one of the indicators of. An upcoming, uh, downturn in the economy. Is the shifting a shift in the buying pattern of the luxury buyer when they start behaving differently?

[00:31:15] Mm-hmm. Something's coming. Is it, is it like, I'm not implying they have inside information. I just think that their lifestyles are so big. Yeah. They tend to be more careful. 

[00:31:24] Marc: Yeah. Because if you, if you, hey, you just tell, told us that with all this wellness and, and well mindfulness more purple. So it, it totally underlines our philosophy with beyond the terrible design clip form follows meaning.

[00:31:37] Yes. So really what's important to them, they, they're, it looks like then the building their own bubbles. Something Jerome. Hundred percents or, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:31:48] Jeffrey: Which I love that, because if you actually think of it, there was so many science fiction movies decades ago where we'd all, at this point, we'd all be living in bubbles, right?

[00:31:55] Yeah. In 

[00:31:55] Marc: the, in the globe. This globe with everything in there, and it's safe and it's living [00:32:00] on your own terms. There's some 

[00:32:01] Jeffrey: prediction of global warming and somehow the planet was gonna be out of oxygen, right? Yeah. So we all have to live in these bubbles. Well, in a way, I actually think. That's the way people are living.

[00:32:10] Like when the world feels outta control, we wanna create our own little bubble. We wanna have our, our home be our haven, our safe place. Um, you know, the, the pandemic was, uh, I was living at the time of the pandemic. I was living in Miami, and of course, we're all in lockdown. I'm in the middle of a very vibrant city, which was typically very social, but everybody's in their own little bubble.

[00:32:33] But then many of us discovered, uh, and we all live in apartments, uh, but then many of us discovered inflatable kayaks. Mm-hmm. And that became, I cannot tell, I mean, you would go out on the ocean kayaking and there would be a hundred people on the kayak. Right. In a way, every, we 

[00:32:52] Marc: had sep we had the SEPs here on the lakes and Yeah, exactly.

[00:32:54] Stand 

[00:32:54] Jeffrey: up paddle. Yeah. For us it was like inflatable kayaks. Be, and think about it like it's, you've got a [00:33:00] hundred people. In a bay, but everybody's in their own bubble because we weren't allowed to be near each other, but it was a way of getting outdoors. Yep. Right. So I think this bubble mentality just kind of became ingrained in us that we wanna protect our own world.

[00:33:13] And this is where I think interior design is so valuable moving forward because nothing is a greater bubble that we can decide what we want to experience. The this crazy political world can't affect us. Yeah. In a bubble of our homes. And I think there's going to be, I think interior design stands to be in a really good position right now.

[00:33:35] Uh, even, even when it may seem like people are challenged with spending money. But I tell you what, I, I think people will not be spending as much money traveling as they might be. Like, I don't, I mean, here in the US. Undoubtedly. I mean, who wants to come to the US at this point, right? So our, our tourism is gonna be way down, but a lot of people are also feeling threatened to [00:34:00] leave the country uncertain whether they're gonna be, how well the reentry is going to go.

[00:34:05] So what do you do? You stay at home. You build your bubble, you build the absolute perfect atmosphere. So that as, what's that cliche phrase that build a life that you don't wanna take a vacation from? 

[00:34:18] Marc: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:34:19] Jeffrey: Build a home that you don't need to take a vacation because your home is the the point of vacation.

[00:34:25] Marc: Wow. Yeah. Good. That's great news for the interior 

[00:34:29] Jeffrey: design. Uh, I think so. That's my prediction. I hope it holds to be true. Yeah. But I really think you're gonna see, uh, an uptick in people investing in, in the bubble of their home. 

[00:34:38] Marc: I can relate to that. If you see the, the really careful wishes and well demands stand a kind of negative word, but what they want in detail in their homes on this kind of level.

[00:34:48] I'm like, why? What is this? But it, this is this kind of. Control feeling that they have, they I can control. I do have the switch. I can control the light. Uh, I can control this. I can, if you go to the [00:35:00] outdoors, you open your door, then you have the street, the public space, and you need to adapt yourself. 

[00:35:04] Jeffrey: Yeah, a hundred percent.

[00:35:06] I think. So 

[00:35:06] Marc: one very important question to you. Um, it's about speed, quality. Takes time. I actually, I hate that we do a, we have developed, we have developed a very powerful method. We go very much in depth. We can design penthouses luxury apartments in just four weeks. We, our clients need to invest only three days from 10 to 4:00 PM.

[00:35:32] That's it. They get six emails and we have, we ended up with design version 1.2. This is speed, but speed with quality is sometimes a little bit off. If you look at the very, well, tell me what's going on here? How, how, what does it mean for the future if we have this 

[00:35:49] Jeffrey: method? I love that. I love, love, love that you're designing this way and I think you're so on trend and I think this is one of the, one of these sticky [00:36:00] points that luxury is having such a hard time getting over themselves.

[00:36:05] And honestly at this point, if you're not air maze, I. I don't think you're gonna get away with making people wait a long time. No. And get the quality they want. Air MAs will, they're such an anomaly that they can get away with. You can, they're, they're, you're still gonna wait two years for your birken bag if you get an invitation to have one.

[00:36:23] Right. But they're about the only, and you could, we could unpack the psychology. 'cause for them it's more than marketing, right? Yeah. It's just that whole family culture that they've created, which is a longstanding culture that, that kind of demand does not happen overnight. I'll tell you, as a photographer, I had an eight week waiting list for 15 years.

[00:36:42] I don't think I would get away with that as much as I was in demand. I don't think I have a clientele that, I mean, I worked around it, you know, I, I had such a loyal clientele that. We would work with them months in advance so that they got the appointment they wanted. So it didn't feel like an eight week waiting list.

[00:36:58] 'cause we were planning it so far in [00:37:00] advance. But the reality was a new client coming in would have to wait eight weeks. I don't think a lot of people are, there's too many photographers, like, why would you wait eight weeks for me, I was good. But you know, there's, there's also other photographers 

[00:37:10] Marc: why they do here.

[00:37:11] Here you are a creative. But I do here very structured and processed. Business. Yeah. This is you, you are already planning that advance. You, you, you, this is what, this is what this comes back to, managing their family because Yeah. You know, they will face a new problem. Yeah. And you are ahead of the crowd.

[00:37:28] Ahead of them. Yeah. 

[00:37:29] Jeffrey: I, I think it's inevitable. I said it's no longer, I think the whole issue between speed and quality is no longer an either or. It's a yes. And I want quality and I want it quick. You know, here's a, here's another great example. I. By circumstance, when I, when I speak on stages, I will often send a gift to the event planner as a thank you.

[00:37:49] And at the very same time, I had two ideas for two different gifts. One, one gift would come from a business in the US would be [00:38:00] sent. Uh, I always have things sent to me so that I could then send it to the event planner with a personal note. The other was my favorite gift to, to give someone in this case is a handmade umbrella made by an a small family owned Italian company.

[00:38:14] They make the most gorgeous handmade umbrellas. What I love about them is that they're so custom, and at that point I will, I have met the interior, the um. The event planner. So if it's an event planner who wears a lot of black, I, you know, I'll play with that with the color of the umbrella or event planner wears very vibrant colors.

[00:38:31] Uh, the handles are gorgeous, like these umbrellas are other level. I ordered both items for two different people online, US company, to be shipped in the US and Italian company to be shipped from Italy. I got the custom made. Umbrella with a mono, a custom monogram on the, uh, sterling silver handle. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:52] I received it in my home, in the US in five days. This other gift I ordered in the US took a week and a half. Yeah. Guess which company [00:39:00] I'm happier with? Right. I got an exceptional high quality custom made. Engraved umbrella from Italy in five days. That's quality and speed. There's absolutely no compromise on quality, and that has been my, now my go, it's my go-to company for thank you gifts.

[00:39:19] Like they're just, who doesn't need an umbrella? Like it's such a cool, and nobody gives umbrellas as a gift, and these are exceptional umbrellas. That's the different, that's where, again, I'm a completely devoted fan of this brand. Because they provided quality and speed. So moving forward, any business and you know, one of the things I, I talk, when I work with luxury brands, it's like, look, I know, you know, you often, luxury brands often wanna learn from the best in the world.

[00:39:48] I get it. But it's also useful to look at complete non luxury brands. You can't help but look at Amazon when it comes to this story. Amazon has [00:40:00] trained the world consciously and subconsciously to expect things fast. Yep. Whatever business you are in into your design, product design, whatever business you're in, you're working with a clientele that's been trained to fast, so they want, it's a yes, and they want the quality, they want the best of you.

[00:40:19] And they want it as fast as you can deliver it. And that is just an inevitable shift to the world that people have to change their entire business. Only Air Maze is going to get away with, you have to wait two years. 

[00:40:32] Marc: Yeah. Alright. Hey, uh, Jeffrey, before we wrap this up, I just want to take a moment to, uh, to thank you.

[00:40:39] My pleasure for being here today. I was really excited about this conversation because we first met a couple of weeks ago. Mm-hmm. And you truly inspired me. Your stories, your, your, your expertise. It's all worth sharing. I knew this was going to be a great episode. Final gift to our listeners. Looking back at everything [00:41:00] we've discussed, what would be your most important advice for interior designers who.

[00:41:05] Want to serve affluent clients and to elevate their business. 

[00:41:09] Jeffrey: Hmm. And it might be, it might surprise most people, but I think in all my work as a coach, I often have kind of an inside out approach. And it even more so working with luxury buyer, uh, that are highly perceptive and intuitive that actually.

[00:41:25] There's some inside work you have to do first, and I refer to it as your diamond edge. Know what? Diamond? Diamond? Diamond edge. And I call it that one because my whole brand is around diamonds and my, my LinkedIn newsletter is called Diamond Edge. So anybody on LinkedIn, find me on LinkedIn. Let's connect.

[00:41:41] Uh, my newsletter is weekly. It's free content about all this type of conversation, but here's what I would, what I'm referring to is your diamond edge. Before you can really serve the luxury buyer at a beyond level, you first have to know why. This is the clientele that you wanna work with. [00:42:00] That is, you're so passionate about that.

[00:42:02] It's bigger than the money and bigger than keeping up with their demands, because if you're just trying to keep up with their demands. You're gonna burn. They will exhaust you if you're in it for the money, because you think working with rich people is the. Road to your own wealth, they will smell that a million miles away and it won't work because they're perceptive.

[00:42:26] So the best thing you can do for yourself is to get clear on why you are passionate about serving this high-end clientele and really know your why, your reason. For me, I would say it was even, it was even twofold, as I mentioned earlier. I knew this was the clientele I was meant to serve because I thought like them.

[00:42:48] Even though I didn't come from the world, I was always thinking long-term, always thinking about sentimental value. I grew up in a place that was worried about struggling and getting by [00:43:00] these people that I saw on TV or read about in magazines. I got them and I knew I got them. The second was I knew I had a talent just like your interior designers, and I felt like my talent was the only thing that was going to change the trajectory, not just of my life, but of my kids' lives.

[00:43:18] I. So my diamond edge through the hard times, the good times, the challenging clients, all of it. My diamond edge was, I knew I was setting in motion a very different life for the kids that I would have one day because I started out before I even had kids. That is exactly what it, all three of my kids had a very different start in life than I had.

[00:43:42] And knowing my Diamond Edge gave me the endurance through the challenging times, it also meant I was coming from a place that was of clean energy and my clients knew, they didn't have to know my diamond edge or my why. They just knew I was being in integrity. I was authentic, I was passionate, [00:44:00] and I was, I was.

[00:44:01] Passionate about serving them and that's what they knew. So I would encourage all your listeners, the best thing you could do for yourself is to really get in touch with your diamond edge. Why this clientele is the clientele you're meant to serve that is bigger than the money and has nothing to do with just putting up with their demands and it will serve you well.

[00:44:20] Wow. Thank you very much, Jeffrey. My pleasure, mark. Thank you for having me on. 

[00:44:27] Marc: A big thank you to Jeffrey for joining us and sharing such valuable insights. It was an inspiring conversation and we truly appreciate his time and expertise. If you'd like to explore more of Jeff's work or connect directly and visit beyond interior design, do Club slash Jeffery.

[00:44:44] And if you're ready to elevate your interior design business and connect with a growing community of ambitious and like-minded creatives, join us at Beyond the Dare design.cloud/join. And one last thing. If you enjoy today's episode, please subscribe and leave us a. Five [00:45:00] star review on Apple Podcast. It helps us reach more designers and keep delivering great content.

[00:45:05] Thanks for tuning in, and don't forget to turn on your notifications so you never miss an episode. We'll see you next time on Beyond Interior Design.