The Rise of the Envirohacker: Designing for Human Behavior and Well-Being

In this episode of Beyond Interior Design, host Marc Múskens reconnects with Callie van der Merwe, architect, thought leader, and originator of “envirohacking.”

Callie takes us on a powerful journey through the science of space—how our environments influence behavior, mood, and even healing. From redefining what it means to be a designer to crafting restaurants that make guests linger longer, Callie’s work blends neuroscience, behavioral psychology, and storytelling into design that moves people—literally and emotionally.

In this episode, Callie shares:

🧠 What it means to be an envirohacker

🏙️ Why architecture can heal—or harm—us

🔥 The science behind ceiling heights, candlelight, and heated seats

🌿 Why reconnecting with nature is key to future-proof design

📌 Connect with us:

Follow us for more interior design insights:

• Instagram: @beyondinteriordesign
• Website: www.beyondinteriordesign.club

🎧 Where to listen:

Find this episode on your favorite platforms:

• Spotify
• Apple Podcasts
• Buzzsprout

Transcript

[00:00:00] Callie: If you think about our evolution, right, as, as I'm Sapiens, everything you know has been pervasive for a hundred years. So whilst we are almost forced into this space. The place where we have quiet and peace and joy is as nature.

[00:00:25] Marc: Welcome back to The Beyond Entire Design podcast, the place where entire designers go beyond a statics and into impact. Today's guest is someone I've followed with great interest, and if you've been listening for a while, you will remember him. Two years ago, we had a fantastic conversation with Kelly Van de MEbA, architect thought leader, and one of the most articulate voices in the world of behavior will and Experienceable design.

[00:00:52] That episode sparked a lot of conversations about how we as designers can create spaces that truly impacts people's lives. [00:01:00] Is a award-winning architect, founder of Kop and the originator of concepts that's turning hats worldwide and viral hacking. As soon as that conversation, his ideas have gained even more momentum.

[00:01:12] With enviro hacking now shaping how designers, brands, and even scientists think about the build environment, what if you could design a space that makes people stay longer, spend more, feel better? Or even heal faster on purpose. In this episode, we'll unpack how science, sustainability, and creativity come together in this revolutionary approach to design, and how you as an interior designer or architect can use these ideas in your own practice.

[00:01:41] Kelly, I'm so glad to have you Again, welcome. Thank you. Good to 

[00:01:44] Callie: be back. Mark. Thanks for taking the time. 

[00:01:47] Marc: Kelly, you've told this fascinating story before, a dinner party with tech entrepreneurs and a biohacker. I wish I was joining the discussion where a single idea completely shifted how you think about design.

[00:01:59] [00:02:00] Let's go there, whatever that night, and how did it lead to the idea of viral hacking? 

[00:02:05] Callie: So, lemme dial back just quickly. So in COVID we had a, like a hard stop in our business because we are commercial designers. So we adopted this position called Design for Behavior. The principle really of this is that we would focus only on the things that move or trigger people to behave in certain ways.

[00:02:26] That became our strap line and the thing that we all work towards. But we were still designed partnership designing for behavior. Now the word design, interior design, those words I've always had a bit of a problem with. And if you think about where interior design started, it started with, we had something we call knocker uppers.

[00:02:43] I don't even know it's a knocker upper where Knock Her upper was a person that went around with alum stick. And we wake people by knocking on their windows two, three stories high in the morning to wake them for work. Now we had knock uppers, milk men lift operators. Up to the seventies and [00:03:00] 50 years prior, in the mid twenties, there was an ear profession that started called interior design.

[00:03:05] Now, if you look at that definition of interior design, it is still almost exactly the same. It hasn't changed, right? Where the world has moved beyond everything. To your point, beyond design, it's moved beyond all these things. But the soundbite in shared design still stands for something quite specific in people's minds.

[00:03:23] So names matter. And if you think about the second or third question you get asked at a dinner party, what is it? It is. So what do you do now if you say, I am an interior designer, or I am an architect, or I'm a physician, I'm a doctor, I'm a nurse. Everybody around you connects certain skills and they position you and you position yourself.

[00:03:48] They know what to expect of you. That's how we survive as people. We know we're not gonna call a plumber to help with a birth. It's gonna be a midwife, you know? We know by definition it keeps us safe. Yep. But interior [00:04:00] design has, has stage static. And so when you say I'm an interior designer, but what are you exactly, what is the promise that it holds when you say I'm an interior designer?

[00:04:09] Because we live into the promise of that thing. We wear it like a second skin. The profession we follow. If you think about most of your life is devoted to this thing that your passion, your dream, your vocation, right? So it's important that we get that right and that we will, by changing the name, we change how we think.

[00:04:28] By changing the name, we change what we do and we change how we. Explore and we change how we work with others. It's, it's all locked up in a name because it is the signals that you'll get back from people. It is how people will communicate back to you. So when you say, I'm a this, then people will call you for this or talk to you in a certain way for this, when you say you're a, that, the conversation changes again, right?

[00:04:51] Marc: Great. Did you say that Cali? Because there was a time when we started with the, with the Beyond interior design that I literally hang one picture on my [00:05:00] wall. I'm not an interior design because Yeah, to go beyond, I had to shift my vision of that. I was an expert in materials or fabrics and colors, and if I wanted to go beyond, I needed to skip my title actually.

[00:05:13] So funny that it works that way. It's a kind of mind shift, mind sa thing. Right, exactly. 

[00:05:18] Callie: Reframing what it is. Reframing it. Correct. So even the word architects from Greek, that word in English language is about 450 years old. But Archie and Tacton is literally chief builder. Now, that also hasn't changed really.

[00:05:32] If you say I'm an architect, then people expect certain, they have a certain view of what you do and what can do, and, and, and, and so the conversations is an exact conversation, right? It's not the same conversation you'd have with a doctor or a bus driver or whatever. So. To get back to your question 'cause I digressed a bit, but just to position this, a couple of years ago I was an dinner party with a very successful, uh, tech entrepreneur.

[00:05:53] He sold his business, he bought a house on the water, you know, in Clifton Gardens. And uh, so what do you do? [00:06:00] Moments started arriving, right? And there were data engineers and. And behavioral, no. What, I'm trying to think of the tech term for these architects. Um, data mesh architects and so forth, interesting titles.

[00:06:14] And I, I sat there and I thought she okay in this environment, saying I'm a interior designer or just, or an architect is just not gonna cut it. It'll be almost like saying I'm a knocker upper or a milkman or a, because it's that far behind in terms of where all these guys are. And so just the head was a guy that's, um, he spoke of biohacking.

[00:06:36] You know, biohacking is. Using size technology in unusual ways to help us reach our full potential. So you see the neural link that El Musk developed where you kind of move the computer with a chip in your mind, but there's 1,000,001 things, even just a sleep app to help you sleep and whoop that you put on your pulse.

[00:06:53] I mean, that's all aking. A minor, less invasive or more invasive degree. So he described biohacking as this [00:07:00] principle base in science and, and that he's a biohacker, that he takes science technology to advance the human abilities that dis triggered, you know, you, and sometimes you have to have that, the moment where the mine's not the a hundred percent switched on.

[00:07:15] So through my beer goggles, that seemed like a complete eureka moment. Like, hang on a second. Biohacking Enro hacking. And so I had that, uh, liquid field bravado to then state on the spots when it came to me. I'm an en environ. Oh, really? Wasn't an enro, but Enro is a designer that takes science, technology, neuroscience, bios, psychology, and applied it to environments to create the best environment so you can be the best version of yourself.

[00:07:43] That landed for me, like Sally and the Hudson. It was a very good outcome of you. 

[00:07:47] Marc: This was your new identity, uh, Kelly? Correct. I'm not this interior architect, or I'm an enviro hacker that's took you beyond this title. 

[00:07:56] Callie: Yeah, my title changed from CEO to Chief Enviro Hacker. Like it's [00:08:00] just, I mean, it may sound whimsical, but it changes the conversation.

[00:08:03] Yeah, and if you look at the. Clients that we have, it's changed their conversation. So things like I like or I don't like kind of got erased. Not by design, just by the fact that we reposition ourselves in how we think by changing the name that we go by. Yeah. And so nobody says anymore I like or I don't like here and there.

[00:08:27] You may find a client say that, but then they correct themselves. There's a preference for things, but the conversation into. Would this work to get people to dwell longer, stay longer? Would it increase price points and so forth? So it's changed the dynamic and the type of richness of conversations that we've been having just by the fact that we reposition ourselves in how we think by changing the name that we go by.

[00:08:52] Marc: I think you upgraded the value because eh, you know, beyond the terra design about form follows meaning 

[00:08:58] Callie: Yes. 

[00:08:59] Marc: This [00:09:00] meaning is about the impact you would like to create. If you just talk about design, interior design, architecture, what's the impact you want to create? I like this title and viral hacking because you, there is already the, the impact included in the title because you know you are going to achieve something.

[00:09:15] You want to achieve something on purpose. That's a high end goal than just colors. 

[00:09:20] Callie: Correct. And think about when design started, when architecture started. Interior design. I'm trying to think of the, oh, Familia. When Gadi designed that, I mean they, I think next year they will finish the building finally, after a hundred odd plus years.

[00:09:36] But when they asked why it takes so long with the design, he said, my client's not in a hurry. We spent 30 years or whatever designing that. Now, if you think about the world we are living in now, we live in instant Everything. Yeah, instant wealth. Buy cryptocurrency and we instant millionaires, instant beauty, go for injections.

[00:09:54] We, we have beautiful lips instantly, or you know, instant fame on social media. We do this, this, and this. We hire a company [00:10:00] now we Instagram models or Instagram influenced or whatever and it's instant. And so if you look at the principles of design, nothing about it is instant. It takes a lot of time and I have great admiration and and respect for the principles of.

[00:10:16] Design thinking, of course, yes. But walking, you know, a thousand miles in your client's shoes to get the outcome to see how they'll behave. Nobody has that time. And so we, as commercial architects, we said if we. Can find a shortcut. And the shortcut exists. If you look at neuroscience, neuro architecture, then through the studies they've concluded multiple things that, you know, people heal faster in nature, people get more stress in boring environments, people walk faster.

[00:10:48] Past bland buildings, people, there's, there's a million things that people do that are, that's predictable. People stand in a queue in front of a restaurant, they're not gonna stand in empty. There's people are. Triggered [00:11:00] by certain exact things. It's a science and the bulk of the triggers are similar for most people.

[00:11:07] So if you wanna speed up design, you take all these things that have been scientifically proven and you infuse them in your design and you speed up the process, you can get a better outcome. Nothing is about proportion. Like, I like the layering. I like the, um, I like the, the concept is a wave, but nothing.

[00:11:26] Those are hollow conversations like the trend color of the year. What the hell does that, what does it matter the trend color of the year? You know, it has nothing to do with design. If you don't impact how people behave in a better way, because to face it, architecture can be solemn, architecture can be devastating.

[00:11:44] Architecture can imprison us the wrong. Kind of think of miss Modern buildings. They were horrible for our psyche. They were horrible for health. Square boxes, concrete boxes. Now understanding the science, you can design the kind of space [00:12:00] that'll make Mark Masters the absolute best version of themselves and it's external.

[00:12:04] And if you know what you're doing. You don't have to know what you're experiencing exactly. Or why, just that you are a better version when you're actually in the spaces. Right. And that's really the principle. You can prove it. The science is there. The science wasn't there. So when neuro architecture was first, um, coined by Fred Gage in 2003, the principles have really started.

[00:12:26] You can dial it back to Florence Nightingale, 1860 when she said, patients heal much faster in rooms that face nature. She said that she observed it in her notes on nursing. But the science wasn't there. No. So when Roger Ulrich came 1984 and he said, gallbladder patients heal much faster. Here are the stats when they face nature, he did a whole study.

[00:12:48] That's really when things started. I. Clicking in everybody's mind, but hang on a second. These things have a very specific, real and measurable outcome on us. As people. We, we [00:13:00] respond to these things in a very, very specific way. So you can also take the. The Jonas Slk Institute, Salk Institute. When Jonas Salk discovered the polio vaccine in 1950s, he was stumped.

[00:13:13] He couldn't get the result he wanted. He, so he went to the basilica, the front, uh, Francesca Assisi. He spent time in there a lot of time in there, and he said, he remarked on how the basilica, the volumes, the proportions created an intuitive awakening inside him. Intuitively, he wrote down the formula to the polio vaccine, not scientifically, completely emotionally getting in touch, in tune with a higher self.

[00:13:42] Went back to his lab and found it to be true, pure architecture influence, pure environmental influence. We don't always know exactly why the impact is there. We just know that it's there. Like for example, we know if we plant in crime written areas that. The greener places in the world have the lowest [00:14:00] crime and vice versa.

[00:14:01] Yep. High green, low crime, low green, high crime. They dunno exactly why. They just know it to be so, so do, do you think we don't know it yet, 

[00:14:10] Marc: or how do you see the future on that one? 

[00:14:11] Callie: We don't know it yet. And that the science has already proven that it is. So, yeah. But knowing exactly why is not necessarily.

[00:14:20] There. Yeah. And there's theories on why. We have theories around why like more green, more eyes people, more people outside. So more eyes around, so less people will do crime and more people are in the spaces type of thing. There's theories around it, but not specific. So yes, this is the reason I. 

[00:14:36] Marc: There are more, uh, quick fire, um, environmental triggers, right?

[00:14:41] You talk about, uh, light systems, for example. Can you, can you give us more practical examples? 

[00:14:46] Callie: So we know in blue lights we wake and in a red light we go to sleep. It's our bio rhythms. It's the way that the cycle works in line with. Our patterns of behavior, we, [00:15:00] we have to wake up in the morning. Obviously it, the blue light triggers and it awakens orange light set.

[00:15:05] Your sun slows us down. So, you know, for example, that in, think about if you had to take, uh, go a romantic dinner, you behave quite differently. If the table has a candle in the middle, it pulls you together. You'll sit forward in the conversation. You won't be sitting back 'cause the candles. Something about the warmth of the candle.

[00:15:25] Think about. When we first discovered a controllable fire, it wasn't that long ago when we fire was around, but to control it wasn't. And so the controllable fire brought storytelling, brought us able to socialize or, or, or was a trigger for like the fire would get lit, people gather around the fire. It was safety, it was warmth, it was storytelling, it was dance.

[00:15:50] All these positive triggers, right? Being with other people. Now if the light is harsh, like a blue light, it doesn't trigger any [00:16:00] of those. Behavioral developments, nothing. If it goes warmer, like 2,700 columns, like get very warm. Like if candlelight, it triggers all those things. 

[00:16:09] Marc: Yeah. Just curious. Gary, in Mediterranean areas, they have this very bright, wide light in restaurants and hospitality and I do know some Spanish and Italian people and they.

[00:16:21] I find it really strange or silly that we dying with this dark and candle lights because they were literally telling me like they feel it's way more intimate and personal. Is it culture based or what? What's going on there? 

[00:16:34] Callie: You know, I'm just thinking of my trips to the Mediterranean where things were the opposite.

[00:16:39] They were warm, they were very warmly lit. Fires going. So it depends, I suppose, where you go. But I'll say a couple of things on that. Yes, there are cultural differences and we must think about this, the, our six core human needs. So we have, we have six of them. I think we spoke about this before, like certainty.

[00:16:55] They'd be always gonna get the same experience. And then the second thing is uncertainty. Well, if it's always the same [00:17:00] experience, it'd be boring. So there's gotta be a few differences in the rest of like maybe some specials or maybe there's a band playing that whatever. There's things are that are different to the time you were there before, otherwise becomes pattern.

[00:17:11] And then we want, um, significance. Now what Mediterranean significance and love, and then we want growth and we want contribution. Those are the core humanities. Now, if a restaurant can pull that off, that's your home. You will never go somewhere else. So the thing that Mediterraneans are excellent, Bri brilliant at is touching you in a way like we're greeting you like a a, like a.

[00:17:32] Holding your shoulder, you whatcha doing like it doesn't feel like that. They have a natural way of just being more intimate. So they're reaching you back on your first day Mark. So great to see you again. And they have this ability to remember and be engaged and warming. So great to see you again. Mark, what have you been doing?

[00:17:47] And we got your favorite table. Oh, somebody sitting there. I can see if I can move them for you. You can sit or there's no place tonight, but Mark, I know you. I know you're regular. I'm gonna make a table for you. That's a Mediterranean way of doing. I, I even if I put you [00:18:00] down the, the pavement in a special little table, but I'm going serve you tonight.

[00:18:04] That's a Mediterranean. So you feel significance, you feel love, like you matter. Now those things are shine. Everything else, like if that place was lit with fluorescent lights, you know, and yet a Platy table cloth, those conversations and those kind of interper, they completely outstrip. Anything else? All want significance.

[00:18:25] We all want love and everything else grows from there, like our contribution, whether we then at the end of the night, leave a very big tip. Think about when you're super happy. Had a great time. The guy treated you so well. Said, listen, we've got fresh oysters coming next weekend. I know your wife loves it.

[00:18:41] Come around or whatever that may be. Um, you, you'll leave a big tip as well. Like, so, so there other, it's not, it's not one thing that covers everything. You do one thing right now. All the other sins are forgiven. There's a, there's a measure of balance of multiple things. You get just some of them rights you will [00:19:00] impacts.

[00:19:00] The behavior of people. 

[00:19:02] Marc: Yeah. Imagine we are designing a new restaurant, a new home, a new office, whatever. Uh, you talk about even ceiling hide influenced Yeah. Our thinking. What, what's the best ceiling hide to use when you want to be creative? 

[00:19:15] Callie: The higher the ceiling, the more creative. We tend to think, we didn't know this before.

[00:19:20] It kind of is a, is a, is a outcome or science of late. There was speculation of it before that. Higher ceilings make us more intuitive. Think again of, of Jonah Slk and creativity. There's a lot of intuition, right? There's a lot of things that are, if you do the creative path, a lot of new is not yet conceived, so you need to kind of access a place in your, in your mind that that is difficult to access.

[00:19:46] You don't access that analytically necessarily. Now, if you look at a lot of the old temples and a lot of the old. And stuff. Religion. Think about that for a moment. The ceilings are quite [00:20:00] high, and if you enter a state of trance or me deep meditation, your mind triggers your eyes to roll upwards. So it's a state you go into.

[00:20:07] But the converse now, the theory is if, if, if the ceilings are quite high in ornate and you spending time in that building, your eyes are drawn upwards. Which then triggers your brain to go easily in that state. So hence, you feel more spiritual in those bullies. You feel quiet, you feel spiritual because you've accessed a part of your brain and knowing just by doing a trigger like this.

[00:20:33] Now whether people knew that already a hundred, 200 years ago and we lost it, or whether that was intuition that. Made them do that. But it was certainly that, and it certainly has the outcome that you require when you go to a place to kind of have peace, access, some quiet and spirituality and whether you're going to, if you to go into your garage where you're not gonna get the same feeling that the, that's just there to house two cars completely [00:21:00] opposite feeling.

[00:21:00] So high ceilings and then low ceilings. The lower the ceiling, the more analytical we tend to think it suppresses and. Activates quite our brain. It's more analytically based. So when we got a warehouse here as well, we are looking for the highest ceiling we could find. That's not as high as we wanted it.

[00:21:14] It's higher than normal, but important for creativity. 

[00:21:17] Marc: What about, because we, there was a lot of science based now and we are still going on with all the research and all the technology, but on the other hand we have this nature-based, bio-based structure or patterns. Is it a combination of new technology and reconnecting what we already knew or.

[00:21:35] How do you see this puzzle coming together? You talk about color healing temples that the Egyptians already had. Yeah, you spoke 

[00:21:43] Callie: about that. Good memory. Well done. That's really good. So the connection to nature is we had think about, and I think I spoke about that last time, for 99 odd percent of our development we've been in nature.

[00:21:56] The last 1% has been the built environment. So we [00:22:00] clearly framed for nature still. We clearly have a. Stronger, how will I put this? We have a far stronger affiliation to nature than we have with the built environments. Like nature triggers things in us that the built environments cannot, whether it'd be the smell, just the thing that is alive, what you hear, and there's a proportion in nature.

[00:22:20] That's the proportion us as well, like they, we, we are, everyone's drawn to nature. Now, there's an interesting thing around nature. It's called the, uh, Savannah hypothesis. What that states is, the studies that they've done is if you, from the Nigerian rainforest to the Australian desert, expose people to multiple.

[00:22:40] Visuals of nature, right? So you could have rainforests, you can have an ocean seaside, you can have deserts. Or the one that most people are most attracted to are pictures of the savanna. Really? Yeah. Big acacia trees like canopy motion type [00:23:00] trees. Where still today? People, they gather under that for schools, they gather under that for to pray.

[00:23:07] The churches are under these trees. Everything happens under these. Now. That's our Origins people 253,000 years ago, the theory that became from the Savannah Plains, right? We are still wired with this image or situation the. With those images that somehow are, we are drawn to images of the savanna plains because of our origin.

[00:23:29] Now these are this theories. Right now it's the same as higher crime, lower green. Like people just know this to be true. Like most people are drawn to images of, of these rolling grasslands with these pierced by these mushroom type trees, with people that gather below them. So we know that our link to nature is absolutely real.

[00:23:51] I mean, it's, it's absolutely unquestionable. So you can also go much further. You can look at the, the principles of, of [00:24:00] one is to 1.6, one eight, the way that our arteries branch in our body. The branch the same way the trees branch, the fractal. It's exactly the same thing. So we, we are, there's a connection to nature that's, I don't think we can ever lose.

[00:24:15] And if you, if you look at, um, what COVID brought people, rediscovered nature. 'cause they couldn't go anywhere. I. They were in the gardens, they were walking their dogs, and so there's a re So now you find plants everywhere in offices that never used to be around. It was a massive, massive istic growth.

[00:24:32] Plants are now in all offices, plants are in all restaurants. There's a, there's a rebirth of our connection to, to nature. It calms you down. Did that answer your question? I don't know. 

[00:24:41] Marc: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, because it's, yeah, it's always something in between, like reconnection with nature and following or guided by new technology.

[00:24:51] There is this, this, yeah, kind of splits going on at the moment with like, I want to follow new technology, I want to follow all the research. And on the other hand, [00:25:00] we want to go back. No technology low back to nature, but it's, there's a new mix, a new recipe. Involving right now of, 

[00:25:09] Callie: yeah. If you think about our evolution, right, as, as I'm sapiens, everything you know has been pervasive for a hundred years.

[00:25:17] So whilst we are almost forced into this space, the place where we have quiet and peace and joy is as nature. 

[00:25:24] Marc: Let's dive into a, a wonderful case study at the Safari Restaurant. Can you tell me more about it? What is it? Where was it located? What did you do with it? Tell me all about it. 

[00:25:35] Callie: The furry is based in the undercroft of a building in the city, one blind street.

[00:25:41] So it's a very tall skyscraper, and underneath it it had this massive five story base. So just the columns holding up the building and it was a leftover space. They had to put a massive, um, chain curtain around it. And inside, for many years, they had a childcare center, which is a [00:26:00] strange place to have a childcare center, but it couldn't be used for anything.

[00:26:03] And then a. An agent well connected and super creative. Tim, he contacted a client. I asked Bradley Michael and said, I'm sure with your vision of things that you do, you can make something of this space. And Bradley brought us there. He said, look at this space. Can we do something here? He said, look, the problem with this space is that.

[00:26:24] 80% of our pe the people, your people will sit outside 'cause there's nothing, you can't enclose the curtain with glass. It's always gonna be exposed to nature, always gonna be exposed to wind, maybe wind-driven, rain climate changes, winters be severe. But let's explore it at least. So we, we explore this, how we could make the place intimate.

[00:26:44] Despite the weather. So we said there's, there's an example. I said, let's put fire, real fire. Not a scream with the flickering, like real fire in the hearts of it. The second thing we said we needed to do is people, you can't dish out blankets. I mean, that's ordinary restaurant. [00:27:00] Um, so we came up with this idea to include the creature comfort you have in cars when you cold and winter heated seats.

[00:27:07] So we have heated seats inside the restaurant. You have a dial and you can turn the seat. Heating up and down. So that made a massive difference, and that makes people feel more warm and significant and it, it does it and it's joy. You can see when people dial it, they immediately have this joy in their face.

[00:27:25] It's unique. Right. And then we created, um, is it, is 

[00:27:29] Marc: it conscious? Is it conscious? This this heated seat, or are they, like, is it really like a surprise when they are going to sit, like, oh, this is warm, it's a hot seat, or are they. 

[00:27:38] Callie: If they have to choose to put it on off, they get notified that they can put it on.

[00:27:42] Yes. And then they suddenly they can feel it and it's makes a massive difference. And so the other thing and is, is you know, the base. So there's a lot of, we have a lot of, um, we went back to nature, so we have. It's a strange thing. We spoke about plastic plants earlier. We wanted to put real acacia trees inside the place, [00:28:00] like real trees, but the slab couldn't carry it.

[00:28:03] The slab was too thin to carry. It's not the trees so much as it is the soil and the water to, you know, to hold the tree. So we had real life likenesses made. They're plastic. But the impact is severe. The impact, it has the same emotional impact as you said earlier, right? And they, they, they, we have five enormous ones like ho holding a canopy, canopy over the restaurant.

[00:28:27] And then we created a series of huts, like six seats to huts. So you sit inside these huts that frame the outside. So in a cozy environment, you're in a cozy space, you feel more cozy. Um, and we introduced things like, um, it sounds weird when you say it, but we have chirping birds over the sound system and it's subtle.

[00:28:47] So nobody's ever, what's it fake? Nobody ever, nobody has ever said, what's it bird fake? Nobody, because it's so subtle. And, um, the sound says in base speakers that sit inside the, [00:29:00] the bench seating everywhere. So you sit in the base seating and the bench seating and you're not, you're not consciously aware that the sound is like.

[00:29:13] You feel the music better because it, it's coming from, but you're not, nobody's ever said, put the bass speaker off here below me. It's not, what is this bass? Nobody's aware. It's a very subtle thing. Um, and then the lighting, like we have, as we said earlier, we have so it, they're not real candles. 'cause you can't, because it influences, you know, I mean.

[00:29:32] There's almost no candles in the market that are good for you. I mean, so, so we have, we have, um, artificial lights in the center that's got that warm glow. Um, so you see that people kind of engaging and sitting forward and all the lighting's done at 2,700 Kelvin. So it's really, really warm light. There's so many things.

[00:29:52] Those are just a couple that I can think of off the top of my head now. But there's so many, and obviously the color spectrums as well as autumn colors, these warm colors, we know that [00:30:00] from doing studies in another brand. I can't remember that I, I can't remember the brand. I can't mention the brand. Um, because we, we did tell them that we have a theory around the blue, so we created a couple of color palettes for them.

[00:30:14] We said, we have a theory around the blue that scientists say that the. That there's theory that the blue may not work, but it's not proven for eating. It's not a conducive color for so, so, so when you look at all the studies done, it's just science, sorry, it's just designers quoting other designers, but very little science backing.

[00:30:32] So is it okay, we have three color spectrums, the blue question mark, or let's try it. Funny thing that happened. So we did, um, we've done 90 stores for them. In the first 30 stores, we saw the results on the uptick in turnover and the uptick in footfall. The warm, warmer, uh, autumn colored, [00:31:00] uh, versions all had massive upticks, but the blue stay static and at a minor, so.

[00:31:09] How we feel in this space. It definitely impacts, if we draw to the space, it definitely, so blue triggers, um, in our, in our estimation, it's more a drinking color. Um, it works in a seafood restaurant because you make a connection. Um, but it's not a, for example, a steak. You're not gonna put steak in a blue space.

[00:31:28] Like you're not gonna put a hamburger. It's just not, I, it's just not ideal. And the, so there's a lot of theory out there and, and it's not crystal, but we are fine and we will never.

[00:31:42] We can only call it that. 'cause we did have the engagement with the climate. Said we are concerned. That's it. That's the last time. So, so it's about, it's 

[00:31:50] Marc: a lot of this, this, uh, storytelling element. It's quite big because I hear a lot of times a lot of storytelling. It's effort based, it's sign based, [00:32:00] but it's sounds really logical that blue, you connect with the ocean, with the sea or with fish with fresh, with it's more logical than you.

[00:32:07] You don't. Serve a steak in white light. It's like it's coming from the, from the refrigerator or fridge. Yeah. 

[00:32:14] Callie: We spoke about the steak thing. Um, last time, the, the, and I, and I, just off the top of my head, I don't have all the details in front of me now. It's where they did the study with 40, it was 44 people from Emory and they had, um, they altered the lights, um, in this experiment.

[00:32:32] So the, and the chips.

[00:32:37] People were enjoying the steak and remarking on the quality, but as soon as they turned the, the lights off that, that, that morphed the color. The, and the real color was, was shown this, the, the items were green and so some people got instead of red and and yellow, some people got physically ill. The connection.

[00:32:59] So [00:33:00] color has that impact, and lighting color has that impact. So, um, I mean, another example is just remember that now obviously in restaurants we are, we are drawn by smell. It triggers our stomach acids and then it triggers our, our taste bites. And it's a connection. Everything connects. Um. And our gastric acids.

[00:33:20] These, these things are all the things that make us hungry. So there's a reason why people have all the open kitchens is the proof, right? All the open kitchens, the last few years, you have to have open kitchens. People talk just about the theater restaurants, but that's just half of it. The other half, you need that smell to go through the entire place.

[00:33:36] And if you do it correctly, like for example, this particular page has taken Bradley Michael, the on unbelievably. Intuitive creative himself, so he brought Bastings to Australia. So when you put the basting on the on the product, the basting is a thing that increases the smell. And so that increased smell.

[00:33:55] Is the thing that helps to sell, though. You may have come in for a salad, but when you [00:34:00] sell, when you smell that you, you're definitely triggered to wanna order like a, a really juicy steak. Right. So anyway, and he, and this particular client is also, I mean, he'll challenge us often on behavior because he is had.

[00:34:12] 40 years of doing restaurants and he's experienced all these things firsthand. So we'll have interesting discussions with him on behavior and, and, and often the conversation with him would be, would you sit in this chair? Tell me why you're sitting in this particular chair. And then often he is right, said Bradley.

[00:34:27] Right. You probably won't wanna sit. That's the last chair we'd wanna sit in. Do you wanna put something else there? Um, yeah. So it is, it is great to have clients that understand it as well. Conversations are different, outcomes are different, more successful. 

[00:34:39] Marc: I think you made yourself very clear that if you tell yourself that you are an interior designer, interior architect, it's, that's not enough.

[00:34:49] Hey, if you're, it's so multidisciplinary, all these elements that are involved to have to give the right experience and to create the right impact. It's so much to [00:35:00] wrap this up because Yeah. Well it's a kind of matter of health actually, for better, for Humanity to think this way, to design. Most of our listeners, aren't there designers and architects who want to create more impact, what as far can you give them when they want to start into integrating these evidence-based way of thinking into the projects?

[00:35:20] Callie: There are, uh, a lot more articles being written about it lately is to go and search for them. It's not really being taught in schools. When I sat yesterday with the head of a prominent design school year, they don't have it close in their curriculum. It's not taught, and I get the point, why not? And it's because it's not needed, because people aren't asking for it.

[00:35:41] They're not. Teaching it. But there are some schools, I mean, there, there is a growing voice in the uk, for example, to bring the air science into schools of design because the impact of space is so severe. Um, and it can really be in the difference between your success and your failure as a person. Your personal dreams, like, like the, the time you get up, [00:36:00] the focus that you have in working the, the reward, you feel the echo, the patient echo it.

[00:36:05] There's so many things that distract us. Not to be able to just focus and get things done the way we wanna get it done or be feel inspired or whatever. So there are, but there are increasing, um, conferences. Like there's one I'm speaking to, uh, as in Spain in end of June, second, 2nd of July. It's called, um, MI, um, body Minds Mind, body Space or Body Mind Space, one of the two.

[00:36:29] And it. Neuroscience and design professors, and I'm, I think I'm the only non-pro professor and non-doctor pro probably speaking there. But it's, so there, there's an awakening, um, worldwide because of the science that is increasingly irrefutable that, um, these things are important. So the data is, is filtering through a lot more, um, pervasively.

[00:36:57] So I think it's just important to go and find it, [00:37:00] search for it. Try, try and a small thing can, A tiny thing can make a difference between success and. 

[00:37:09] Marc: What should be on the priority list of a designer where, where to start? Literally, because you mentioned so many ingredients and you can, can dive into it.

[00:37:16] You be, you can become a professor in this other world than interior design. This combination. What, what's the first thing you always need to include in your interior designs? 

[00:37:25] Callie: Well, you have to start with your audience and the audience that they cater for. Obviously. So who do they have, if it's an existing brand?

[00:37:34] And then are they, do they wanna reca for them or do they wanna cater for them and a new audience? And so then you need to find the patterns of behavior and the existing audience, um, and design for that, but also the patterns of behavior and the new one and design for that too. Um, and if you. If you, for example, um, and I think we touched on this last time as well, the older you get, the more you push yourself out and in, [00:38:00] into a chair.

[00:38:00] The younger you are, the more you just get up in and out. So the older you get, the more you need size to a chair, for example. Um, that, that, that is more comfortable and it's, and so getting furniture correct. Just exactly correct. So for example, and I think that's probably the biggest finish in lighting, I would say.

[00:38:22] Um, so the, the, the shorter the stay, the light of the chair. Conversely the heavier chair, the longer the stay. And I think we touched on that too. So a fast food, like, um, five guys or, or McDonald's, the chairs are light. Pick them up in one hand. Think of a fine dining. The chairs are heavy. They invite you for a longer stay.

[00:38:43] So you need to get. All these tiny triggers. If you get all those tiny triggers correct, right heights, right type, right light, you can actually get away with murder and, and, and fret less about what the restaurants walls look like. Because the total experience, for example, that happens at a table.[00:39:00] 

[00:39:00] Obviously workplace is different, hospitals are different. We just spoke today about restaurants. I'm just talking about that now. Retail is different. Yep. How things are lit.

[00:39:12] Five talks just in retail, but you're just focusing on, on hospitality for now that those, so it's just, I would say take on a, who's the audience? How do they behave? Who's the desired audience? How do they behave? And then find the science to back into their desired behaviors. 'cause you don't change people's behaviors.

[00:39:31] You only design into their patterns and behaviors 'cause it's habits. One, change habits. So if you understand those things, you can design, if you get those things right. You will bring massive value to your client and forget about what's, forget about what's unfashionable and what's trendy. Those things are terrible things In commercial space, you cannot actually, it's fine for your home maybe, but as soon as you step out of home, you have to, even [00:40:00] hotels anything out of home, you gotta think about your audience, like really deeply.

[00:40:04] Your visits are your guest. 

[00:40:06] Marc: Well, I think I can imagine this is a, a very fulfilling part of your career right now. What you're doing, what you're inventing, what you're collecting, the research, uh, you've done. What do you find most exciting about where en viral hacking is going in the near future? 

[00:40:22] Callie: I think, look, I think, uh, we are probably gonna face a lot of backlash and a lot of, um, pushback on certain things.

[00:40:29] I really believe we can speed up design. We have to speed it up. The world is speeding up. I think we can find shortcuts to outcomes that clients need. And my excitement for this idea is finding more patterns that we can repeat. Um, and patterns doesn't mean that you get, the designs are becoming similar, but you get the basic building blocks, corrector.

[00:40:51] Volume, texture, tonality, weight of things, um, lighting, all those things that come first. And then you can skin the thing in something that is [00:41:00] brand specific. Because brand building is about recogni recognition, right? And so I'm really, we, we are only at the footsteps of, of, of. Talking about this and discovering this and, and as a science we are not scientists like, you know, we are designers.

[00:41:16] So we'll always be borrowing from other scientists. We'll always be reading science papers and neuroscience and behavioral psychology. We'll always be gathering those things as much as we possibly can, um, to then see how we can install. Those findings, you know, designed to make them far more hard hitting.

[00:41:34] Um, and so that's, that's my joy. I think that's my excitement for this. It's, it's excited. Everyone in our studio, they're all super excited by it. Um, it's also, I think our next step is to teach this. So we've, we've, we've registered, uh. Another, and we'll talk about this in our next podcast 'cause this is in the beginning.

[00:41:56] But we really wanna teach those principles, um, to [00:42:00] people. We don't wanna keep it to ourselves because it'll just further design, we think. Yeah. And I think that's, yeah, that's, for us is exciting to uncover more and apply more of that. 

[00:42:09] Marc: Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you very much, Kelly. Thank you for being here again.

[00:42:13] Uh, your work continues to challenge the way we think about our role as designers, as architects, and not just creating beauty, but well shaping lives. Actually, so, uh, thank you very much for being here. 

[00:42:27] Callie: You're very welcome. Thanks so much for having me. Always a pleasure.

[00:42:34] Marc: Alright, a big thank you to Kelly from the mayor for joining us and sharing such valuable insights. It was an inspiring conversation and we truly appreciate his time and expertise. If today's conversation with Kelly made you eager to dive deeper into how effort based. Design and environ hacking tends can transform your spaces and the lives of those we use them.

[00:42:56] Visit beyond the tower design tcl slash galley. [00:43:00] That's also where you can explore more researchers and connect with his work. And if you're ready to elevate your entire design business and connect with a growing community of ambitious and like-minded creatives, join us at Beyond the Te Reside Club slash join.

[00:43:17] And one last thing. If you enjoy today's episode, please subscribe and leave us a five star review on Apple Podcast. It helps us to reach more designers and keep delivering great content. Thanks for tuning in and don't forget to turn on your notifications so you never miss an episode. We'll see you next time on Beyond Interior Design.