#055 — How to Get Paid for Your Expertise, Not Your Shopping List - with Deborah Flate

You ever feel like a screwdriver?

Like you’re just executing — sourcing, quoting, fixing — instead of being valued for your design vision?

Because honestly, I’ve been there too. Running around, trying to realize a client’s dream project… only to feel like the least important part of the process.
Until I realized: I was doing it the wrong way.

This episode is a raw and honest conversation with showroom sales trainer Deborah Flate — someone who’s been on both sides of the table. As a designer. And as a showroom manager. And she gets it.

We talk about:
• Why transparency isn’t scary — it’s your superpower
• How to stop hiding margins and start owning your value
• The magic that happens when you share the full story with your dealer
• What “being the expert” really means in a world where everyone can Google your product
• Why clarity builds trust — and trust builds your entire business
• And what happens when you stop chasing small wins… and start building a bigger game, beyond interior design

“Don’t be the screwdriver. You’re not just selling a couch — you’re transforming lives. But only if you stop hiding and start leading.”

If you recognize yourself in this — the tension between your design vision and the business side — this one’s for you.

And honestly? This is one you’d better listen to than read.
So hit play. And enjoy.

Connect with Deborah Flate at: www.beyondinteriordesign.club/flate

And for the interior designers who want more...  

Ready to attract dream clients and create your most beautiful projects yet?
Step into your authentic power with exclusive trainings, tools and live sessions.

Activate your FREE MEMBERSHIP at the Beyond Interior Design Club:
👉 beyondinteriordesign.club/join

Transcript

Deborah: [00:00:00] The truth is, we have to honour what we give to this client, and that is experience. We’re helping the client not make mistakes. I’ve even seen a client go off and buy something “wherever”, and they can’t even get it in their door!

Marc: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Beyond A Charity signed. Podcast. I'm Mark Miska, interior designer and creative business coach, and today we're diving into a topic that every designer, showroom owner and sales professional will recognize that fine balance between creativity, business, and trust. Because, let's be honest, how often do we as designers get frustrated when a client buys a sofa somewhere else after we've spent hours researching the perfect one, or when a project feels like a tick of war [00:01:00] between design, vision, product, sales, and margins.

Well, today we are going to explore how that flow between the manufacturer, the showroom, the salesperson, the designer, and clients can actually become a full circle of collaboration and success. And to help me unpack that, I've invited someone who has lived and mastered every step of that circle, the borrower flight, and the borrower.

Is a dynamic business and sales pist, speaker and innovator with almost three decades of experience in the design industry. She started out as an interior designer before moving into sales and management with iconic companies like Donya Larson and Ka Andout. And honestly, it's. Exactly the kind of mindset the entire design world needs right now.

So, Debora, welcome to the podcast. 

Deborah: Thank you. Thank you so much, mark. 

Marc: I'm so happy we're doing this conversation because I think there is a huge gap and a [00:02:00] huge opportunity between designers and showrooms. What do you see happening most often between designers, showrooms, and clients? 

Deborah: So, I am in the United States, and I think though what I observe here, I can be taken to any area.

I've trained people in London, so I understand the European business model. I think one of the biggest gaps is transparency, and I know you talk a lot about that. It's being transparent with your sales person as well as your client, and the more transparent you are, the more people will trust you. I call it a trust bridge, even when I train salespeople, you've got to form a trust bridge and that trust bridge, the bricks in it, are built with transparency and being honest and open with both the showroom and your client.

Marc: Yes, exactly. Because many designers keep their pricing or margins invisible. The clients doesn't even know [00:03:00] that part of their income depends on the project sales. So it's not strange that they buy everywhere elsewhere, right? And it creates tension. Designers want to advise with integrity, but they also need to make a living.

So the system becomes unclear in my eyes, and the trust disappears. 

Deborah: I, I totally agree with that. I do lecturing all over the country and panel discussions, and what I find here more and more is that designers, um, and they've done it for years, but it seems more prevalent now even with higher end designers or the more luxury market designers is their marking up everything.

Insane markups, you know, because that's the way they think they're gonna make money. The the truth is we have to really honor what we give to this client, and that is experience sometimes at schooling and degrees. And that, what I say is we're helping the clients not make mistakes. I mean, I've even seen a client go off [00:04:00] and buy something at wherever, and then they can't even get it in their door.

Marc: Yes. Order elevator. 

Deborah: They take it into the elevator. 

Marc: Yeah. 

Deborah: So we're also helping them, the designer's client, to not make huge mistakes and have headaches of returning or overpaying, whatever it is. 

Marc: Yeah, and that's really strange actually. Trust disappears when the moment money becomes a secret. That's what I experienced over the years.

What, what do you think would help to change that dynamic? Is it simply about being more transparent or is there a deeper mindset shift that needs to happen? What is it? 

Deborah: I think there's a mindset shift. I think both are true one and another. 'cause two things can be true. I definitely think there needs to be more transparency because I believe transparency will build trust and allow you to not just design one room, but to design the entire project because they trust you and that built trust has to be there.

But the second thing is. [00:05:00] Simon Sinek, and he has you, right? And he has a YouTube video that's, I think it's like 15 years old now. It's called Start With Why. 

Marc: Yeah, the Golden Circle. 

Deborah: Right? The Golden Circle. There you go. I do lecture for designers here in the States, and I also teach salespeople is to start with why.

He has a whole book on it, and it's not meant to be a sales book, but I highly recommend it because it's not about the product because I will tell you as he does, and I've said this for. Over 20 years, once you focus on product, it becomes a commodity so they can buy it at Restoration Hardware because clients don't understand the value in it.

So if you uncover the client's why, what's really most important to them? Not just, oh, I'm gonna have a really nice home, or I'm gonna have some new furniture. But what's really important? And then you can be really transparent because you say this is important to you. And may I give an example? [00:06:00] So this is what I even teach salespeople this.

So let's just say you have a client that is absolutely, sustainability is their number one. They are so, they have three children and they want it, uh, have a, a healthier earth given to their children. So to them, sustainability is really, really important. And if you uncover that and say, well, sustainability is important to you, therefore.

I'm gonna sell you the sofa. That's a little more expensive, but it's gonna literally last a lifetime. Not necessarily kids don't want their parents' furniture anymore, but that you'll feel good about or your client will feel good about themselves, that they're making an investment that's gonna help them with their why, and that is sustainability.

There's tons of examples. 

Marc: It's so powerful. You, you have to define the value, but also the value. You as a designer, right? Otherwise, the client will define your value, and most of the [00:07:00] time, maybe that's not enough for you to make ends meet when you position yourself the right way. Not as a stylist, not as this product seller, because yeah, of course you're advising a couch, but you're not the salesperson for the couch.

But be a more electric at Pfizer. The real interior designer with a clear value, that's when your business transformed in my eyes. 

Deborah: And if I can say something about the value, this is another example I always give if I may. You don't go to a doctor and say, well, you know what? I'm not gonna pay for your services.

And the doctor says, oh, that's okay. I'll just mark these pills up 300%. No, you paid the doctor for his or her advice, and the doctor gets from you. What you're really ailing with, the doctor says if you go in and have a knee problem, for instance, the doctor isn't gonna give you a headache pill. The doctor's gonna diagnose what's really going on, what's important to you, and then appropriately, um, give a prescription [00:08:00] and charge for their services.

Marc: Uh, it's amazing that you talk about Simon Sinek. It's one of my favorite books and, uh, I'll think of very early. Well, guy from a Network Opportunity. I got Network Club when I back, literally back in 2008 or so when I just started out as an interior design. He, happy you have to read this book. This is everything, well, you almost can call it now the Beyond Layer where Revealing Met all those, uh, interior designers worldwide.

One example I'm always using is like, Hey, uh, there was a taxi driver and he said, we are driving Mercedes. I don't give a lot about cars, so I don't care about Mercedes, but I'm quite tall. So then the benefit to the right, not with driving Mercedes. No. We are driving cabs or taxis with the longest lag space.

Then I'm on. Then I'm like, I want to go to this taxi driver. 

Deborah: That's right, because that taxi driver is meeting your needs, your why. You need more leg space, [00:09:00] and you'll even pay more for that. For instance, you may go to an airline and get, upgrade your seat because you're not gonna sit for four hours with your knees in your eyes, so you have long legs and you want, and you'll pay more for it.

So it just makes. Perfect sense. 

Marc: Yeah. They always can put me at the emergency exits. I love that. That's the best place for me. 

Deborah: Exactly. 

Marc: That's a very powerful thing. You need to explain your biggest why. And most designers, hey, they talk about, uh, features and not about benefits. That's how I call it. If you talk about, yeah, I have a drawing set and I give you a floor plan and a light plan, I and I give you a shopping list.

Yeah. Who cares? It's just the way how you get there. What's the real value? What's what they get When you are gone as a designer, right? When you ditch your job, what, how does it change your life? This guch, this sustainable gout, right? 

Deborah: Right. 

Marc: Does it meet your values? And that's a way bigger level than. Just a beautiful [00:10:00] couch.

Right? This, this is beyond aesthetics. 

Deborah: It goes so far. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you said that, mark, because so many designers think it's about aesthetics and it absolutely is not. Whenever you're doing a design job, they can get product. Anywhere today there's the internet, there's Restoration Hardware, there's all these retail stores that have beautiful product.

I'm, you know, sorry. It's beautiful. And, and clients don't understand the difference between an $8,000 COM, uh, sofa and a. $4,000 Restoration Heart, they don't understand the value in that. They just say, Hey, this looks great. I'm gonna put it in my home. And that's when clients go out and buy things on their own.

So it's so far beyond aesthetics. That would be a great book. Title Beyond Aesthetics. There you go, mark. 

Marc: It's in the pitch of beyond the, the zone. That's what I love to talk about, always beyond aesthetics. Although we love a job, we love, we want to make this world more beautiful. And of course that's our passion.

That's, [00:11:00] we love beautiful things. I, I have a, I, I fancy ugly things because, and I'm always look like, why is this so ugly? What, what is this? It makes me really. I dunno. It attracts me in some way. So beauty is a big game changer. We even get better by, by surrounding us with beauty. Eh, it's better for the health.

But if you talk about just this is beautiful or this, this is the right match for you with the curtains or whatever. Well, you need to have a better positioning as an interior designer, otherwise you always will have this problem about the money and the budget. 

Deborah: That's right. And you know, I'm thinking as you're speaking about different target markets, there's a whole new market of wellness because there's a lot of people that are aging.

There's a lot of people that wanna age at home, they don't wanna go to some whatever, so they wanna age at home. And so there's a whole, which is another. Great target market is understanding biophilic design and neurodiversity. I'm neurodiverse, I have dyslexia, I'm [00:12:00] neurodiverse. And if a designer were to design my space, not asking me the questions that they really should be asking and they present this, this design to me and I start my, I start crossing because I don't like a lot of clutter.

I don't like, 'cause I'm neurodiverse. That's just understanding again. The why and asking those questions. I always say, ask questions from your client and then really listen. And I always say listening isn't about not talking because as we're thinking, we're not listening. We really have to be mindful of listening and asking those right questions and then listening to the answer.

'cause you are gonna get. Everything you need in those answers if you ask the right question and then you give them on a silver platter what they're asking for so you don't have to mark it up. You can charge a fee and make more money charging a fee, and sell more expensive things too. I mean, I've always been [00:13:00] in the luxury market and when clients mark things up.

30, 40, 50%, they can't even buy from me because they, you know, their, their clients can't afford my product. In the luxury end with Donia and Larson and Holly Hunt, they can't afford those things. So that's why I keep going back to, it's really so far beyond aesthetics. 

Marc: Yeah. And money, money is always a, it's a, it's a scary world for creatives.

Right. The word we call it sometimes the M word, because, well. If I talk about, Hey, what's your design fee? Or, or how, what's, what's, what's in the end? What is left of the project fees and all the margins? And they don't like to discuss it. And I, I know in the beginnings I was one of those, but if you really look at your numbers and you want to design, you want to have a structured business, it's very important to love those.

Numbers and to see what's really going on. If you look at the new times, I want to have it very clear for everybody who's listening here at Masters of Interior [00:14:00] Design, that's my own interior design firm together with Wan Vander. I do have it for seven, eight years now together. Uh, but I started in 2008 already and we made a very clear decision.

We no longer work with margins or hidden commissions, and we earn true transparent design fees only. That's a very bold decision, but what it gave us is we landed a huge project. Multimillion dollar Euro projects. And I do honestly believe it's really because we told them this is our design fee. This is what we do.

This is our core business expertise. We are, we master this for the rest. We don't get margins on that. And they felt so safe and secure and. Well, it made us really independent advisors, so they said, you're gonna have the deal. Amazing, right? 

Deborah: Yes. And you know, I thought of [00:15:00] something when you were talking about that, and I know this is hard because it's hard for salespeople too, but everyone isn't gonna be your client.

Marc: No. 

Deborah: Everyone. I mean, you were transparent about it. And if they would've said, oh, you know what, mark, I don't think we wanna pay that much money. It's like, okay, thank you. Goodbye. And you go on to the next one because you want to attract clients that value what you do. I have that written on a, on a little.

Thing on my desk. I wanna work with clients that value what I do. I don't wanna argue, I don't wanna start, you know, penny pinching, you know, Hey, pay your invoice, whatever. No, I just wanna work with clients and I open myself up to working with clients that value what I do. If I have to start explaining too much, it's just not my girlfriend or boyfriend, it's not my partner, you know, then you move on to someone else.

But I you, you're right there. You're proof of it. People value what you and your design partner are doing. Yep. And giving to them, 

Marc: and well, one way [00:16:00] was in the beginning we were kind of afraid because of course the design fee way higher than your competition. But if you can explain what is going on in the backend.

They, they don't feel safe anymore. With the other, with your, with the competition, they're like, Hey, how, how much are they, are they getting, are they earning on my new couch or on the wallpaper or on on every lights, fixture, whatever. Have people, if they, if you tell them how this markets. It's build up and what's, what's traditionally, uh, the way of working with clients then?

Well, I love to share that story now because I don't think it's an, it's an old fit for an old, for older times it's old fashioned to work that way. Do you see the same shift already happening with, into a more transparent model? Did you get 10% or 20% on every new item that's coming into the home? 

Deborah: I'm actually, I'm actually seeing it go the other way, and that's what makes me sad because we have to, as an industry, we have to support each other.

And I talk about that a lot, [00:17:00] mark that it. If we support each other as an industry, and I know you have a different business model, we have a bus, and I'm sure some of it is the same, but we have a business model here where it is to the trade, so it's considered wholesale, which we know it's not really wholesale, but it's considered, I mean, clients can't come in and buy it.

For that much right now, this to the trade is sort of crumbling because I believe because we're not really supporting each other, and by that I mean the designer needs to be fully vetted in their business and fully grounded in their business so they can purchase from a showroom, a store, whatever it is, and they can purchase from them.

And if. They give the showroom more information. The showroom can make it easier for the designer. But so often I've even seen, and I worked in a design firm where the designer didn't even, 'cause she had binders at the time, didn't even have the names of the clients because she didn't [00:18:00] want anybody to know.

Oh my gosh. You know, it's this big secret. It's this big dark secret. Yeah. Why, why I, I always would say that I don't even get. That. But now with the advent of the internet of chat, GBT, now ai, you can find out anything you want anywhere. And do you really want your client to find out, oh yeah, I'm marking this up 40%.

So going back to the business model. We need to be more designers should be more transparent with their, whoever their vendors are, so they can make their job easier so the designer can build more business, have more time to build more business, and then the showroom will be able to be more transparent with the manufacturer and the manufacturer will support that, and it goes back to the designer.

So it is one big circle of transparency, the word for the day. I feel like putting up a sign. Word for today is transparency. 

Marc: Hey, if you want to be sure and you tell your clients that you do need the money [00:19:00] in the realization process, in the construction phase, whatever, but you can communicate openly like, Hey, I take on this level, 20%, 10%, whatever you want to, uh, to, to take.

Then that's okay. But don't make it a secret because lots of designers get so frustrated. They're like, well, and then they bought a couch somewhere else and then, eh, they didn't new and they were shopping online. And they even asked me, is this the same couch? Yes, of course it's the same couch, but they order it somewhere else.

Another funny thing is that I experienced recently when you work with dealers and showrooms and or agents or whatever, and you tell them the whole story you share the clients, the project, and even way more information about what you try to achieve in the end. They will run for you. So what happens? It saved us as a designer major amount of time on the projects because we had to search for [00:20:00] this items.

But they are the expert. They are the showrooms. They knew the new best items, the, uh, all the fabrics that go on it. We can, you cannot know every element of an interior design, right? So when we explain the whole project to the showroom. They were like, ah, then you need this. Oh, in that case, can you switch it for that?

Can you do that? And well, we stuck, we kicked the, the concepts. We didn't change the concept, we didn't change the colors, we didn't change anything. But they had, they knew. The higher reason, the beyond level of your entire design concept. So instead of like, I'm looking for a green sofa, the whole story changed.

What do showroom owners normally do? Explain me. A, a, a regular standards word the designer comes in. Then what? 

Deborah: So I'll give you a great example of that. Every designer wants to put what I call their thumbprint on something, even if they don't need that particular change. [00:21:00] So they'll come into a showroom typically and ask the salesperson, um, I need a green, this green sofa that's sitting here, the sofa that's sitting here, but I need to make the arms about an inch, an inch wider.

So the showroom goes into high gear because they don't ask the right questions like, what is your budget? What's your timeline? That could wipe out a lot of, you know, I have a graphic when I do my sales course of 12 sofas, and then the questions next to them that the sales person should ask and the designer needs to answer instead of, oh, there's no budget.

Oh, there's no no there. I don't even have a, a install date yet Really? Really, you don't have an install date really? And you don't have a budget. 'cause your client never signed a contract with a budget on it. Really? I don't think so. So they just, the showroom will just because they're scared about asking too many questions.

It's a. Big designer and they just go into high gear and they just [00:22:00] start getting going to their computers, which is why you always see them when you go into a showroom always on their, 

Marc: yes, 

Deborah: it's all right. It's all their heads are down. You see the tops of their heads. I call 'em little pumpkin heads because they're so busy pumping out quotes.

So, and then it gets to the designer and the sofa, let's say, sells for, you know, $12,000, but the customizing just that little inch. Bumped it up to $22,000 if they can even do it. 'cause sometimes they'll come back three or four weeks later and say, the manufacturer can't do this. So you've wasted all that time and then you say $12,000.

My client, I'm not paying that. Wait, I thought you said there was no budget.

Wait, didn't you say

with. A long time between answers, which eats up a lot of time. You, you're emailing the showroom or the whatever it is, store, Hey, where's my answer? That they're stalling. So it's just this [00:23:00] big sort of knot. Yeah, that gets tied up in the process. I always talk about the process. Let's talk about the process, not just what you sold or not, just what you, what you, you did in your desire.

Let's talk about the process and the more transparent you are, the, uh, taught the, the not gets untied and it's just a smooth rope then of, of communication. 

Marc: And, uh, what can, uh, what can you improve as an interior designer? When you walk into a showroom, 

Deborah: you give the, the showroom, even if they don't ask. I mean, I'm working on that side too, for them to ask better questions.

But even if they don't ask for you to say, if they do ask, be, just really don't say there's no budget. Don't say there's no install date. Give them the most information. Just like you want your client to give you the most, right? Yeah. You want your client to give you the most information so you can find the best solution for them.

If [00:24:00] they hide information, you then, as the designer are gonna go down some road, that's not gonna work, right? No. So what you wanna do is the same with the showroom. Be very transparent. Say, this is when my install date is. And you can, they're experts in the showroom. Ask them, I wanna customize this. What's, what do you think is gonna be the increase in the price?

'cause it may not fit in our budget. 

Marc: No. And the other, and the other thing is I went somewhere in the room and I say I'm looking for a green couch because I made the mistake before long time ago. But I, I went in the shop as I am looking for a three person couch, green. And then they showed me all the green fabric samples.

Deborah: Ugh. 

Marc: In the shop, in the room, every collection nationally, internationally. What have I was like, what is going on here? What do you need to know in order to help me with a green couch? Because this is, this is not going to work. 

Deborah: Well, and also Mark, I, another slide that I have in my presentation is we are all.

[00:25:00] In the world now. It's not just in the states. In the world, we're all what I call drinking out of a fire hose. There is so much information that we take on a daily, on a daily basis, and about for about a year, I've been studying neuroscience. And the truth is we take in bits of information, something like 60,000 bits of information every minute, and our brain only can only work with.

Three or four bits of information. So all of that information is coming at us, or we're looking for it, or we're all overwhelmed. Right. That's a, that's just a fact. So in order for us to make a decision to either put this on a, a board for a client or for us to, as salespeople, to give it to the designer is we have to curate their choices, and then you have to curate your choice to your client.

You can't. Throw them 600. Fa I'm not, I'm not gonna exaggerate. You can't throw them 30 fabrics or 20 fabrics and [00:26:00] say, here, this, this, this. Well, we can't do it to designers either. And there's data that proves it out. That one sample, one sample garners the most. Um. Sales from one sample. So we have data that proves that the more you curate choices, the better it's gonna be.

Confused. Minds don't buy, they just go to the easiest and that's gonna be Restoration Hardware. 

Marc: Yeah, 

Deborah: they're gonna run 

Marc: Shocking result. One sample. Yeah. We do know with designing interiors that we don't over three versions because everybody knows one is the best one. The second one is a knockoff, and the third one is.

Not going to be the one That's right. It's simply that, that, so if clients were asking like, Hey, can you design three versions? We always say no, because why? No, because you have to ask better questions. That's right. That we, you know, so consciously, so naturally that this is the right version for them, and then again, to your next phase.

Give all the [00:27:00] information to everybody that can help you on the other side, in the shops, in the showrooms and manufacturers, because if they know the, the whole in-depth story of your clients, you know when you hate sales and you tell the showroom person everything. About what you want to achieve and the budget and all the installments and everything else about the client and they go shopping with or without you in that shop, you know what happens.

They can sell the client even a better couch or a more expensive couch then you initially picked for them. And that's up to the clients if they want to raise the budget because they fell in love with a more expensive couch or a new collection couch or the the seed is better, or whatever reason they have.

That's up to them. But you stick to the budget, eh, and that's another magical thing. We lo most of the time we have clients that go for a better higher product. Well, that's okay, but you have to take care about their budget. So you do. But when there is another [00:28:00] option, then it's up to them. Process. 

Deborah: And you can, if you, as I said at the be towards the beginning, if you find out their why, you just plug all the product into their reply and they're going to accept it because you have met their, it's not about a dream of a vision.

That's part of it. And like you said, we all love beautiful interiors as interior designers. Yep. But we also run a business. Period. Stop. We run a business. Yep. Just like showrooms. I've worked with the best showrooms in the world and I always say, you're a sales organization, just like if you were. A office supply place.

It's just that we're blessed in the luxury end to have beautiful product, but you're still a sales organization and a designer. You talk about the dirty M word. I talk about the dirty S word sales because no one wants to sell. 

Marc: Yeah, 

Deborah: and you have to sell. Daniel Pink, who's another [00:29:00] wonderful author, has a book called To Sell is Human.

So we all, we're all selling all the time. We just don't realize it when we have, let's say a partner and we wanna go to a movie or a friend or whoever, we wanna go to a movie. We have to sell that person on going to that movie if they wanna go to another one. Right? Yeah. So we're all sellers. Yeah. We just don't realize it.

Marc: And the funny thing is, if you talk about the design fee, lots of interior designers know how to sell a couch from, I dunno how many thousands of euros of dollars, but they're scared to sell themselves within complete interior design for the whole house of residential building or hospitality, whatever office.

They're afraid to sell their own expertise, but it's so easy for them to. Be an ambassador of the green couch of maybe it's tripled, quadrupled the design fee in the end. And then another thing is, uh, I want to discuss that they, lots of interior designs, they think they need to be the [00:30:00] screwdriver, they need to do everything by themselves, from the sales to the logistics and the communication.

I think that's the recipe for a burnout if you are in a daily silo, right? 

Deborah: A hundred percent in the showroom part of the of, of this circle, I always talk about having a sales assistant for the salesperson because the salesperson needs to do what they're good at. And then the other stuff, the other administrative admin, I'm not a good admin person 'cause of my dyslexia.

I they need to. To have that to support, and every time I put that in place in a showroom, the sales grow every single time. And it's the same with a designer. You cannot be everything to everyone you need to, even if it's a part-time person or whatever it is. You're good at doing design. That's what you're good at.

That's what that right brain is all about. 

Marc: Yeah. 

Deborah: Why not ask somebody that has a left? Brain activity to support you so [00:31:00] you will be able to make more money doing what you love doing. That just makes perfect sense to me. 

Marc: Yep. I love the quote, you just brought it up, but if you try to become everything to everyone, you'll end up being nothing.

To anyone. 

Deborah: To anyone. Yes. Thank you for, for reminding of that, me of that. 

Marc: Yes. Yeah. I, I love that one. 

Deborah: Yes, it's very true. If you, and that's also why I think it's really important, and often designers don't do this. In 2009 when we hit the crash here in the United States, I did some classes for interior designers in the area, in the Chicago area, and I said, you need to pick a time.

Target market because that's something that will also make you valuable. Whether it's baby boomers, downsizing, whether it's k and b, kitchen and bath, whether it's, and designers are so reticent to do that, mark, because they think they're only gonna do that one room. And I always say, no, it's not true, because there goes back to that trust.

Bridge. Then they'll say, oh, you know what our, it's happened to me in design and I [00:32:00] don't actively design. I was doing my vet's home for her. I did a wonderful job in her living room and dining room. And then she said, oh, by the way, my bedroom and my bath and my kitchen, because she trusted me, you know? And it just ended up being a huge.

Projects. So it's so important and rich people are not a target market. 

Marc: Yes, that's, that's what I hear. Literally two weeks ago, I, I, I spoke to a designer and a roadmap call. We do do all offer free coaching calls to find out where the next level or your beyond level is to, uh, to find the hidden patterns in your interior design firm.

I ask her, what is your niche? She said, rich people. 

Deborah: I've had that told to me too by designers. Yeah. I'm like, that's not a target market. 

Marc: And I said, and then what? They can, they can afford your designs or they can afford beautiful stuff, or, yes. Then I can create anything I want. I said, do you, if you're listening right now and you are aiming for rich clients, well we have [00:33:00] way more podcasts.

Yes. A big cross during the screen. Yeah. Then you have to listen to more of my podcast about money, about positioning, about niching and, well, I know niching, it may sound like, oh, I cannot do anything else anymore, like the borrower just told us. But it's, it's not, if you can focus on residential design and what, what, you always have the choice to say no to hospitality projects, right?

Or, or you have the possibility to say, yes, this opportunity is still there if you want to do a restaurant. People want to work with you, although you focus on residential, well, that's your choice. But if you try to be an expert on every level because you love every. Projects then It's hard. 

Deborah: No, because people then, you can't define yourself on your website.

You can't define yourself in your collateral, in your marketing, and I'm sure Mark, you do that all the time, is, and I do it with, it's the same with [00:34:00] vendors, it's the same with showrooms. I ask them, the first thing I ask them is, who's your target market? And when they tell me. If they don't know, then we do a SWOT analysis and we get to who their target market is.

If they do know, then you work backwards. Then you say, well, my marketing needs to address this, and my website needs to address this. And 

Marc: yes, 

Deborah: you know, all of that start, the pieces start falling in place. And then when someone is looking for someone who's downsizing or someone, whether it could be in anything, the most successful interior designers that I know here.

Countrywide. I worked, I didn't work for him, but I worked for a company that he owned in California and that's Michael Smith who did the Barack Obama's White House. I mean, he's a very, very famous designer here in in America. I didn't work directly for him, but when he'd come into the showroom, I'm a, an observer and I would watch him and boy does he come across as being sure [00:35:00] of himself.

This is what you need to do, and he works with. Some of the wealthiest people in the world, but he just comes across as this is what you need to do. Here's what you need to put in your home, because this is why, and that's successful. Design that, and then other people will come to you, work will come to you.

'cause once you establish that, um. That, uh, reputation in the industry. Once people start talking about you, then clients will start to come to you. You'll start attracting clients and you won't have to constantly be, ugh. You know that wheel of marketing? 

Marc: Yes. Yeah. Lots of designer think you are limit. They are limiting themselves by niching, but it's not.

You are limiting yourself the other way around. Exactly. When you don't have a niche, niche is about focus, about knowing your audience so you can truly serve them. That's another thing. Hey, you can give the. You can design the ultimate experience for them, literally beyond interior design. Mm-hmm. [00:36:00] They think they can hire an interior design, but they're not.

They're hiring way more, they get way more out of it. Right. 

Deborah: Well, there's so much research, mark that I've read over the years about. It, it, it sounds cliche, but it's so true. The riches are in the niches. That doesn't mean, so I'm gonna give you a personal, my own personal experience. So I only dealt my whole career, my whole 25 years of being in business.

I only dealt with showrooms in the luxury end of the market, and I was coming up against some nos and I thought. Well, what am I gonna do? I wrote about it on LinkedIn. I pivoted. I said I should be name my company Madonna, 'cause I've changed so much. But I pivoted to an adjacent, I'm still in my niche to an adjacent uh, sector, which is construction, k and b, kitchen and bath.

You know, people that sell. Flooring renovation, it's still in my niche. They can go to my website and see what I've [00:37:00] done. It's still in my niche. It's just an adjacent, so now I'm attracting, I'm gonna be speaking at a conference. I'm attracting more people. Yeah, I had to make a few outreach calls, of course, but now I didn't have to.

It wasn't burdensome. And now I'm in an adjacent um, sector. I'm still in the design sector. I'm still, but you know, when you get. Knows from people, you have to think, is this really my target market or have I saturated that or have I, you know, done as much as I can for them? Or are they in a different place in their cycle?

I don't know. 

Marc: Yeah. 

Deborah: But I can't sit here and not build a business, have a business, so I just pivoted. It's still my sector, and designers can do that too. But riches are in the niches. 

Marc: What I do see is most designers don't need more clients. They just need to get their food. Of the host, and that's a wonderful metaphor you, you shared with me last time.

I love 

Deborah: that. 

Marc: Yeah. Can you, can you tell me more about it? 

Deborah: Absolutely. It's one of my favorite, [00:38:00] not at a church or a temple or anything, but I heard a sermon that a reverend gave and said, you're, you're watering your, your lawn. Or your flowers or whatever with a garden hose, and everything's going great. You know the water's coming out, everything's going great, and then all of a sudden it stops and you look at the hose, you turn back and you looked at it, does the faucet?

You know, is the faucet. Oh, that seems to be working okay. You try to adjust it and then you look down and you realize that your foot is on the hose and it's stopping flow. So all you need to do is take your foot off the hose to make the flow. That's all you need to do. And I love that analogy. We so often stand on the hose and say, no, I'm gonna do it this way.

This is the way I'm gonna do it. This, that is putting your foot on the hose. 

Marc: You wrote a beautiful, uh, book about it, Gusto. I don't want to go in depth on it, but it, it, it's covers all the steps, right. For showroom owners, salespeople, even 

Deborah: designers. It does, [00:39:00] it, it, it was written 14 years ago actually, and all I did, oh wow.

That's how long I've been espousing all of this, and it comes from all of my experience. I always tell people, it's like your, you know how your mom says learn from my experience? You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, and then you do whatever it is. Not based on her experience and it doesn't turn out too well.

So I always try to tell people I have made so many mistakes in my career and I have, I have turned that around to be lessons, not mistakes, but lessons. And that's what's in this book. And it really is geared towards showrooms. Of how to run a sustainable, profitable showroom, not just a showroom that goes up and down as most do, as most businesses kind of do, but to really run a sustainably profitable showroom.

And a lot of it is based in sales, but some of it is based in operations. You know, I mean, one of the examples I give in the book and designers can learn [00:40:00] from this is that you don't, you don't want to just. Limit yourself to, to selling one product to a client. You don't wanna focus on the product, you wanna focus on the project, and that's what designers should be doing too, and feeling confident in themselves.

They really need to feel confident, and that is a mind shift sometimes. Because I think designers sometimes feel not confident that they're what of the value they're bringing to a client, but you are bringing a lot of value to that client, and you need to really understand and know that so that you don't back down and say, oh, well they could get this sofa here.

They're, no, they can't. If you give them what they need, you, they can't. 

Marc: Yeah, and the, the magic is when you build a re they know how to build relationships with the clients. But I can advise you. Build a relationship with your showrooms, do with oldest partners, share the whole story and you, you have a wonderful relationship [00:41:00] and you have way more loyalty, they will run for you.

Deborah: Absolutely. And the, and the brain science. You know, because I've so many times I've trained hundreds and hundreds of salespeople and so many times they say, oh, I have a great relationship with them. It really goes deeper than that. It's really about brain, brain science and using the right questions to connect.

To the other person and make them make the wall go down, you know, make them really understand that I'm gonna give you so much value if you give me the right information, but that backs to them asking the right questions. 

Marc: I love the story about the green sofa, the, but I think lots of designers will recognize that.

So never, ever answer a showroom again with the question, I'm looking for a green couch. Please do that and see what happens. Share the whole story about your whole project. Share it with the showroom owner and build that relationship because make them part of your team. 

Deborah: They're a [00:42:00] free arm. Make them a free arm of your design studio.

They will be if you do this, and I'm working on the other end of it for for the salespeople to ask the right questions, but they can be. I've seen so many successful salespeople and designers that use the tools in the right way. If you use the tools in the right way, you're gonna go so far. 

Marc: So I love the idea of this flow, of this loyalty because, eh, that's what, what makes us work human too.

Designers, showrooms, and manufacturers. We all part of one ecosystem, eh? And if we stop pushing and start listening, if we focus on the needs instead of the products, so beyond the terra design, then everyone can thrive. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. For bringing your gusto to the conversation.

Deborah: I'm so honored. Mark, thank you so much. I'm so honored that you allowed me to be on your podcast. It [00:43:00] makes me feel really, really great. Thank you so much. 

Marc: Well, thank you.

And if you are listening and you recognize yourself in this conversation, maybe you are the designer trying to balance creativity, trust, and business, then keep this one in mind. Don't be a screwdriver. Focus on the project, not the product, and keep that flow open. You can find more about the borough fleet in our book, Gusto leveling up with Gusto, and in the show notes and the podcast description, so you can connect with her over there too.

And if you want to grow your studio beyond the tar design, if you want to know how to position yourself, how to raise your value, or to even design your business with a transparent system. Like we do with our own interior design company, join our community at Beyond Interior Design Club. We help interior designers to build a [00:44:00] business on their own.

Thanks for listening and see you next time.